twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: I dont think doing dumb stuff as a MD is a good idea, but I really dont think doing Dumb stuff as DNROI is a good idea either. by making the statement that you can mandate a competitor not use a permitted attachment that is required to be functional that opens a whole can of worms that A should have been anticipated and B should have been left alone. WML would either kill or add to the number of dark house stages, you added them so be it. I think that's the right answer, too. If they are allowed, they should be able to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, Eric802 said: 5.2.4.1 addressing nothing other than "apparel pockets". So I, in Production, could have my make-ready mag in my front pocket. Doesn't say anything about magnets. It actually doesn't matter. What if I just hold the magazine in my hand? Or in my bag that I bring to the starting position?? The rule specifically limits using it AFTER the stand by command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I would say the rules are deliberately designed to stop people from figuring out ways to be dicks and interpret things in a way to punish people. That's why our rulebook keeps growing. People keep finding new ways to be dicks. I wouldn't sacrifice competitive equity for some perception of friendliness, but if you want to, there's always SASS. They even have a "spirit of the game" penalty for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: I would say the rules are deliberately designed to stop people from figuring out ways to be dicks and interpret things in a way to punish people. That's why our rulebook keeps growing. People keep finding new ways to be dicks. We do need the like option on this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, twodownzero said: I wouldn't sacrifice competitive equity for some perception of friendliness, but if you want to, there's always SASS. They even have a "spirit of the game" penalty for you. not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people finding a new way to interpret a rule to punish people that no one else thought of before. Or designing an even more annoying stage than previously. Or coming up with some bizarre new interpretation of what things are 'in the shooting area'. so we end up with rules prohibiting those stages, or specifically allowing the behavior that a few people thought was not allowed in a particular interpretation of the rule, or even MORE carefully defining what is and what isn't part of the shooting area. Edited March 12, 2021 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: I dont think doing dumb stuff as a MD is a good idea, but I really dont think doing Dumb stuff as DNROI is a good idea either. by making the statement that you can mandate a competitor not use a permitted attachment that is required to be functional that opens a whole can of worms that A should have been anticipated and B should have been left alone. WML would either kill or add to the number of dark house stages, you added them so be it. Liked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I just read the updated NROI interpretations of the WML addition and the most shocking thing to me is now they are stating that a weapon mounted Laser is now allowed in Open division...... Its going to get strange on the range in 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I think my wsb for next weekend is going to require the shooter's eyes be closed for the entire stage...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people finding a new way to interpret a rule to punish people that no one else thought of before. Or designing an even more annoying stage than previously. so we end up with rules prohibiting those stages, or specifically allowing the behavior that a few people thought was not allowed in a particular interpretation of the rule. I don't think using a magazine from a prohibited place was a new interpretation at all. There even was a picture in the rulebook about where magazines had to come from, and many interpretations from the DNROI at the time telling people not to use magazines from their front pockets. As primarily a SS shooter, I have been aware of this rule for as long as the division existed--even as a provisional division back in 2005 or so. I have never dished out such a penalty, but I did have a friend who earned one at an Area match, and he got to shoot iron sight Open Major with a single stack 1911 with 8 round magazines. Last I saw, he was asking if anyone had any 10 round single stack mags in their bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, motosapiens said: I would say the rules are deliberately designed to stop people from figuring out ways to be dicks and interpret things in a way to punish people. That's why our rulebook keeps growing. People keep finding new ways to be dicks. yes and no. our rule book keeps growing in part because rules are written poorly and regularly miss the bigger issue. like Flashlights OK, why add functional? it doesnt stop the gaming as they have stated, but it opens about 10 doors that will require 10 more specific rules to fix so we all enforce the same. could have been simple but now its a mess, and more expensive for the shooters in the end. people are going to end up buying 20oz tungsten flashlights for $1K because racing, where as a $50 light with a lead plug gets the same thing and no advantage is lost because the light don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, CHA-LEE said: I just read the updated NROI interpretations of the WML addition and the most shocking thing to me is now they are stating that a weapon mounted Laser is now allowed in Open division...... you think sharks with frickin' lasers will be useful in open? a competitive advantage in some situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: you think sharks with frickin' lasers will be useful in open? a competitive advantage in some situation? since when have open shooters only bolted useful s#!t on their guns? thumb rest anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: since when have open shooters only bolted useful s#!t on their guns? thumb rest anyone? Hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said: since when have open shooters only bolted useful s#!t on their guns? thumb rest anyone? i am no longer making fun of thumbrests. we put one on tresa's volquartsen 22 pistol and *immediately* started shooting better and more consistently. I think she even held a world record on one of the stages for a day or so. I haven't found a need for them on any other gun however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: you think sharks with frickin' lasers will be useful in open? a competitive advantage in some situation? Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner. I see what you mean. Haven't really seen that with pcc lasers, but a pistol would be significantly easier to do reach-arounds with. I'd kind of like to see some real-life examples, but I suspect there will be a few make people's heads explode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I see what you mean. Haven't really seen that with pcc lasers, but a pistol would be significantly easier to do reach-arounds with. I'd kind of like to see some real-life examples, but I suspect there will be a few make people's heads explode There are not many PCC shooters with enough grip/arm strength to one hand a PCC while reaching around a wall. A pistol is a totally different story. Especially an Open gun with a comp doing all of the recoil management work for you. When I think about the potential for taking advantage of this there was a stage from my last local club match that I could have eliminated 2 shooting positions by doing exactly what I proposed. On prop heavy stages you see at majors this could be exploited even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russty Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 You may not see many Open guys using multiple magnets on their belt 'cause they only need to grab one magazine from a barrel. Production guys may need to grab 3, so having 2 magnets on their belts would make a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russty Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I just got 2 magnets to play with 'cause who doesn't love magnets? We're all just overgrown kids with cool toys, anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 53 minutes ago, motosapiens said: not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people finding a new way to interpret a rule to punish people that no one else thought of before. Or designing an even more annoying stage than previously. Or coming up with some bizarre new interpretation of what things are 'in the shooting area'. so we end up with rules prohibiting those stages, or specifically allowing the behavior that a few people thought was not allowed in a particular interpretation of the rule, or even MORE carefully defining what is and what isn't part of the shooting area. I think I understand what you're getting at here, and I generally agree with the idea. I hate retreat stages and we shouldn't need a rule to eliminate them; they are dangerous for competitors and for the RO. This is partially why I find this rule change so annoying. The weight limit was a feature, not a bug of Production, and this screwed that up. It's bad enough that it introduces another piece of equipment that could be perceived as necessary for some matches, but for it also to suggest that everyone ought to have it on their lighter guns to be more competitive even if it isn't used, that is really annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Russty said: I just got 2 magnets to play with 'cause who doesn't love magnets? We're all just overgrown kids with cool toys, anyway! One of the first uses that I discovered when I put a DAA magnet on the front of my open rig was to stick to a friends pickup truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 53 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: I just read the updated NROI interpretations of the WML addition and the most shocking thing to me is now they are stating that a weapon mounted Laser is now allowed in Open division...... Its going to get strange on the range in 2021 I thought lasers were always allowed in Open...Some competitors used them many years ago, they were great indoors, but outside not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 46 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner. Pretty sure lasers have been allowed on open guns for a long time. Had to look it once several years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 46 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: There are not many PCC shooters with enough grip/arm strength to one hand a PCC while reaching around a wall. A pistol is a totally different story. But a pcc shooter never has to even bring the rifle to their shoulder with the laser, and trust me, I've run enough of them to see them do it. So quick draw McGraw can practice with his/her pistol and pull a Miculek with the fastest number of shots.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 This just wasn't thought through, membership could have been called in for comment, wasn't there something in bylaws about comments 3 months before rules are effective. "16.2 Competition Equipment Rules Modifications: Changes to USPSA Division rules affecting personal competition equipment shall be adopted for a specific nonprovisional division no more frequently than every two years except as outlined below: i.) Changes as required to comply with federal laws ii.) Changes or clarifications which, approved by the BOD with consultation of DNROI and the instructor corps, would loosen restrictions or otherwise expand allowed personal competition equipment for a specific Division Notice of all such changes must be published in the board minutes three months prior to effective date." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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