NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights

[Schutzenmeister]

44 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

So in this scenario a competitor who wants to be competitive would need to have a WML, it’s not mandated but it’s necessary to achieve a good result.

 

So if attending a match with a dark house stage, a WML becomes essential.

 

That's how I'm seeing it old friend ... Unless the WSB prohibits its use.

[BritinUSA]

Its the same issue I had with the 140mm magazines in CO. Anyone wanting to remain competitive essentially had little choice but to break out the credit card to buy extended base-pads, longer springs and followers.

 

For some, it turned a $35 magazine into $125 magazine.

 

I would love to know exactly how many people are requesting all these changes.

 

 

[mreed911]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:17 PM, CHA-LEE said:

 

Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage?

 

Which goes to my earlier point - how long before we see RMR's with lasers built in to the base of them?

[Schutzenmeister]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Its the same issue I had with the 140mm magazines in CO. Anyone wanting to remain competitive essentially had little choice but to break out the credit card to buy extended base-pads, longer springs and followers.

 

For some, it turned a $35 magazine into $125 magazine.

 

I would love to know exactly how many people are requesting all these changes.

 

 

 

You and me both!

[Schutzenmeister]

1 minute ago, mreed911 said:

 

Which goes to my earlier point - how long before we see RMR's with lasers built in to the base of them?

 

I don't know what the point would be.  If you're in CO the laser would send you to Open.  The Open shooters have already figured out it doesn't help.

[mreed911]

25 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I don't know what the point would be.  If you're in CO the laser would send you to Open.  The Open shooters have already figured out it doesn't help.

 

Under what rule?  CO requires optical/electronic sights, and the rules (and NROI) designate lasers as optical/electronic sights and as per the ruling they can be used in Open since that allows optical/electronic sight.  As long as it's mounted behind the ejection port on top of the slide, it complies with the CO rules.

 

Per Troy's words: "lasers... are considered a sighting device" - if that's true in Open, it's true in CO - it's the same "device," as long as it's mounted appropriately for use in CO.

Edited March 14, 2021 by mreed911
grammar

[vluc]

Down the rabbit hole we go!

[facedown]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

 

Under what rule?  CO requires optical/electronic sights, and the rules (and NROI) designate lasers as optical/electronic sights and as per the ruling they can be used in Open since that allows optical/electronic sight.  As long as it's mounted behind the ejection port on top of the slide, it complies with the CO rules.

 

Per Troy's words: "lasers... are considered a sighting device" - if that's true in Open, it's true in CO - it's the same "device," as long as it's mounted appropriately for use in CO.

Flashlight Clarification 2

[facedown]

3 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

For those who seem to have questioned when (or if) lasers have been allowed in Open Division I had to hunt a little ... From my old copy of the USPSA Rules (7th Edition 1995):

 

 

Ever since then, when reviewing the rules for Open, the key phrase has been "Optical/electronic sights permitted ... Yes."  (Reminder, in 1995 there were two and ONLY two divisions!)  I think it abundantly clear lasers qualify as an "optical/electronic sight."

 

I sincerely doubt the reason no one uses lasers on their Open rig is by accident.  I promise it's been tried and folks found it really didn't work worth a ... darn.

Thanks for the research!  I looked as far back as I have rulebooks but they don't go back to '95, lol.

[rowdyb]

Funny how what was probably intended to be something inclusive has now ended up being divisive.

Edited March 14, 2021 by rowdyb

[Sarge]

50 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Funny how what was probably intended to be something inclusive has now ended up being divisive.

I have yet to hear anyone say their AD asked for input from the ranks. If they had, all of this would have been avoided.

[Intheshaw1]

So is the fix to all the issues of just rolling out new rules to maybe make an announcement for a potential rule change, have a period of input from anyone that wants to submit input and then decide if they want to modify the original rule, scrap it, or keep it as is.

 

At least then it won't seem like they are just randomly changing the rules....

[Southpaw]

22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I have yet to hear anyone say their AD asked for input from the ranks. If they had, all of this would have been avoided.

 

[bofe954]

We could avoid all the flashlight nonsense and just allow night vision goggles. I am sure there are a ton of special operations folks just dying to shoot USPSA but they won't without being able to use their night vision gear...

[cheby]

14 minutes ago, bofe954 said:

We could avoid all the flashlight nonsense and just allow night vision goggles. I am sure there are a ton of special operations folks just dying to shoot USPSA but they won't without being able to use their night vision gear...

Hahaha 

[Hdiamond]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:03 PM, cheby said:

It actually doesn't matter.  What if I just hold the magazine in my hand? Or in my bag that I bring to the starting position?? The rule specifically limits using it AFTER the stand by command.   

But 5.2.4.1 isn’t the relevant rule here. 
D4, D5, D7 20 are. under the old rules “magazines may not be retained by magnetic means”. 
 

[B_RAD]

11 hours ago, Sarge said:

I have yet to hear anyone say their AD asked for input from the ranks. If they had, all of this would have been avoided.

I’m seeing some AD almost get defensive of this entire situation. 
 

saying things like “you don’t have to change anything if you don’t want to”. Or “I’ve heard way more positive than negative “. So, anyone griping just gets dismissed. 
 

I’ve never even heard of an AD asking for input on any issue. Not sure that’s really all that realistic either. Don’t know if they have enough time to entertain everyone’s input on every issue possible?  So I want to cut them some slack. 
 

saying that, I’d suggest people upset contact their AD and let them know they don’t like this rule change. Also, entertain the idea of either running for AD or supporting someone to run against their current AD. This is politics right?

 

It seems like the culture in USPSA is the BOD changes a rule, the majority don’t like it but they just accept it and “live with it” and then repeat. This seems to be how it works since I’ve been involved for the last 4 years. 
 

Let them know you don’t like it. Don’t just come to the Internet forum and gripe!  Send them emails. Ask them to motion for another vote to change it back. I have!  Then remember when it comes time for another election. Vote them out.  
 

 

 

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

saying things like “you don’t have to change anything if you don’t want to”. Or “I’ve heard way more positive than negative “. So, anyone griping just gets dismissed. 
 

fwiw, here at our local matches, I heard zero griping about the rules change, and many positive comments. CO is probably the most popular division here right now, for whatever that is worth.

 

It does appear that every person in uspsa who doesn't like the rule changes is posting in this thread.

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

WSB Question: In a ‘dark house’ stage, a small hand-held flashlight is available for use. Could the WSB indicate that a competitor can either use the supplied flashlight (or one of their own)?

 

If so, in this scenario a competitor with a mounted light would have a significant advantage over a competitor that had to hold a flashlight in their hand while shooting. In this case does it essentially push EVERY competitor to get a WML mounted on their gun to avoid the potential disadvantage?

 

as i mentioned earlier, the darkest dark house stage I have seen was at 2015 SS nats at pasa. IIRC they did have a handheld flashlight available for use. I could see well enough to shoot at full speed without it, and I don't think a WML would have been the slightest advantage. 

 

Now you could intentionally construct a dark house stage where it might be an advantage, but in 9 years of shooting this sport, it seems like such stages have been exceedingly rare, so I'm not sure using that point really makes for a valid objection to the rules.  However, if we suddenly start seeing lots of MDs constructing dark houses that are big enough to put targets far away, and dark enough that they can't realistically be shot without lights, I'd be willing to change my opinion. I suspect it will just be way too much infrastructure for anyone to invest in.

 

One thing you *might* see is the occasional uspsa sanctioned night match (as opposed to the current occasional outlaw night match). I doubt I would shoot either one.

[B_RAD]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

fwiw, here at our local matches, I heard zero griping about the rules change, and many positive comments. CO is probably the most popular division here right now, for whatever that is worth.

 

It does appear that every person in uspsa who doesn't like the rule changes is posting in this thread.

People hear and don’t hear what they want. 
 

 

and that’s where we are. If you like something you seek out things to keep your  status quo and vice versa.  
 

I have to be honest with myself and know that I’m doing that as well. 
 

but we just dismiss things because we find one thing that reinforces our views. 
 

There are a lot of folks that like the changes. No doubt but to act like the folks that don’t like these changes are few and far between or are just a few GM’s that are being elitist is just not accurate.  
 

And I think we need to look at past trends and the current trajectory the org is on. I will not be surprised to see magwells and carry comps very soon. 
 

 

Despite the word “Practical” being in the name, USPSA is not practical at all. It’s a sport. Not a hobby. Not real life scenarios. It’s a sport of marksmanship at speed. 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by B_RAD

[Schutzenmeister]

16 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

Under what rule?  CO requires optical/electronic sights, and the rules (and NROI) designate lasers as optical/electronic sights and as per the ruling they can be used in Open since that allows optical/electronic sight.  As long as it's mounted behind the ejection port on top of the slide, it complies with the CO rules.

 

Per Troy's words: "lasers... are considered a sighting device" - if that's true in Open, it's true in CO - it's the same "device," as long as it's mounted appropriately for use in CO.

 

Point taken ... The discussion to this point has primarily been about WML w/laser embedded.  I suppose that if a laser were to be configured into a mount that meets the requirements of App D7 #13 there should be no problem.  But as I said ... I believe the reason folks don't use lasers is they don't frikin' work well for our sport!  If they did, Open shooters would have been using them for a long time.  I've tried shooting with a laser before.  It's darn near impossible to track in recoil making second shots worse than difficult at speed.

[facedown]

5 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Point taken ... The discussion to this point has primarily been about WML w/laser embedded.  I suppose that if a laser were to be configured into a mount that meets the requirements of App D7 #13 there should be no problem.  But as I said ... I believe the reason folks don't use lasers is they don't frikin' work well for our sport!  If they did, Open shooters would have been using them for a long time.  I've tried shooting with a laser before.  It's darn near impossible to track in recoil making second shots worse than difficult at speed.

 

Flashlight Clarification 2

 

Ruling:  Amend D2-D7 by adding this sentence:  Use of lasers prohibited.  

[RJH]

After thinking about if for a bit, here is my opinion on the rule changes:

 

Holster/mag position changes:  As a guy who shoots mainly limited and SS, I like this rule change a lot.  Puts my mags in a similar location and on big stages that last mag in SS is way easier to get to

 

Magnet change:  I never had a magnet, but always thought their exclusion was dumb

 

SS weight change:  I don't really care but do find it odd that this change came about so quick after Troy went to open for an overweight gun at Nats LOL.  I do hope they leave it alone now though, as I didn't really care for all the weight jumps in production.  I don't really want 60 ozSS guns

 

Flashlights:  This is another one I don't really care about, but do hate the "functional" part of the rule.  I have thought for a long time and still maintain the  idea that since they went to a max weight in production and CO and not a stock weight + X oz, that people should be able to strap whatever they want on their guns to make that weight.  

[Bayou]

I agree with RJH on the max weight and flashlights. I would think the flashlights were a way to add weight without opening up different ways to do so. That horse has already left the barn and honestly the weights that I've found will not add up to hill of beans with the weight currently at 59 oz. For instance, a streamlight-guide rod-thug plug would only bring a g34 up to about 35 oz anyways. I would like to see a magwell ok'd but from the last couple of years that I've been paying attention, the rules get changed a lot and drastically.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bayou

[mreed911]

18 hours ago, facedown said:

Flashlight Clarification 2

The sheer number of clarifications there is embarrassing.