Help/Hindrance of cowitness sights?

[jwhittin]

I found a few opinions posted but would like to hear more about the pros/cons of running cowitness sights in carry optics.  I recently started in CO and I don't have any fixed sights installed.  Do they help you acquire the dot faster? Anyone try with a front sight only?   How often has your red dot failed during a match?   Other considerations?

 

I suspect they wont help and I should focus on perfecting my indexing.   

 

Thoughts?

[dfwmiket]

I"m anxious to hear answers to this too.  Used to shoot Open, which didn't have any cowitness, and now trying Carry Optic, seems distracting. Then again, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.     

 

-M

Edited June 9, 2020 by dfwmiket
SPELLCHECK!!

[CHA-LEE]

For a competition gun you shouldn’t need backup iron sights. If you have a dot failure mid stage then you can fix it for the next stage or swap to a backup gun. If the dot fails mid run then you simply have to embrace the suck and get through it the best you can by point shooting the targets.

 

If the desire for backup iron’s is to help “find” the dot then you are setting yourself up for failure. You need to put in the dry fire work to optimize the presentation of the gun so the dot is in the middle of the Glass any time the gun is presented between your face and a target.
 

Start by pointing the gun at a target with the dot in the middle of the glass using a normal two handed grip. Then lower the gun to the middle point of the draw stroke while maintaining a two handed grip. Punch the gun out to the fully mounted position and see where the dot is in the glass. Keep working that until the dot is consistently presented in the middle of the glass while on the aiming spot on the target. Once that is refined add building the grip with the presentation. Once that is refined add gripping the gun in the holster with the presentation. Doing it piece by piece like this will pin point “where” in the draw stroke the presentation of the dot in the middle of the glass fails. 
 

This process will likely take thousands of presentations in order to build the biomechanic consistency needed to reliably see the dot in the center of the glass any time the gun is between your face and the target. Embrace the suck because it’s going to take a while. It will take even longer if you bounce around using different guns and platforms. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by CHA-LEE

[SGT_Schultz]

The "I need irons to find the dot" is a weaksauce excuse for "my draw sucks and I use the sights to cheat".  Mostly from the tacticool crowd.

 

Some in that same crowd don't need irons to find the dot but insist you need backup sights on a self defense handgun.  That has been accepted as dogma but I'm beginning to think that dogma is not so ironclad either.  I do need to test some ideas more before I reject the notion.

[jwhittin]

Thanks Charlie! Thanks SGT!    That's what I thought. I just wanted to confirm.  I've been dry fire practicing for a couple weeks now.  I'm getting more consistent.  The hardest part for me is getting the correct grip every time on the draw. The slightest grip variation shifts the location of the dot from the center and I still loose my dot completely sometime.  And I'm finding it very difficult to get a consistent grip every time from the hands-above-shoulder position.   Looks like I have another thousand or more reps to do to get my grip consistent.

[StealthyBlagga]

I have an M&P CORE that comes from the factory with cowitnessed irons. I don't need them to find the dot (as mentioned above, you don't want to get used to that crutch), but neither do I find them in any way distracting. I guess they would be handy if my dot did fail, but I mostly leave them there because I see no reason to remove them. Equally, I'd not make any effort to install irons if they were not already there.

[CHA-LEE]

2 hours ago, jwhittin said:

Thanks Charlie! Thanks SGT!    That's what I thought. I just wanted to confirm.  I've been dry fire practicing for a couple weeks now.  I'm getting more consistent.  The hardest part for me is getting the correct grip every time on the draw. The slightest grip variation shifts the location of the dot from the center and I still loose my dot completely sometime.  And I'm finding it very difficult to get a consistent grip every time from the hands-above-shoulder position.   Looks like I have another thousand or more reps to do to get my grip consistent.

 

If the root of the issue is an inconsistent firing hand grip position on the gun while drawing it from the holster, then you need to assess the position of the gun in comparison to your relaxed hand/wrist position. If the gun is at a funky angle or height while holstered and you have to "Drive" your hand/wrist to a strange position in order to place your hand on the gun then it will not be consistent. Especially when you try to do it fast. Even though each division has its equipment placement restrictions, you need to at least attempt to position the gun and mags so that you can access them with the highest level of hand/wrist/arm efficiency. The easiest way to assess the position of your gun is to start with your hands/arms completely relaxed at sides. Then raise your hand/arm slowly to place your hand on the grip of the gun using the least amount of muscles. Pay close attention to all of the muscles and movements you need in order for the palm of your hand to evenly touch the back strap of the grip. Reposition your gun as needed to eliminate wasted movements. The only things that should be moving are your hand and arm. Not the shoulder, waist, head, etc. Positioning the gun so that you can grab at it during the draw with the least amount of physical movement will dramatically improve the consistent positioning of your hand on the gun during the draw. Especially when you start to inject aggression and hand speed into the process. The more inefficient your hand/wrist/arm movement is, the less consistent it is going to be.

[mvmojo]

I compete with a 2011 but keep a Glock 19 with a Holosun 507 in the car frequently use it as my carry gun.  Because the Glock grip angle is different than a 1911/2011, co-witness suppressor height sights eliminate the problem of occasionally not finding the dot.  Since I don't compete with a Glock, I don't want to spent time dry firing to fix the "find-the-dot" problem because I'm afraid it would screw me up with my open gun.  On the other hand, I've got many years shooting iron sight guns and can easily pick up the front sight independent of the grip angle.  So, the co-witness sights work for me.  YMMV.

[CHA-LEE]

2 hours ago, mvmojo said:

I compete with a 2011 but keep a Glock 19 with a Holosun 507 in the car frequently use it as my carry gun.  Because the Glock grip angle is different than a 1911/2011, co-witness suppressor height sights eliminate the problem of occasionally not finding the dot.  Since I don't compete with a Glock, I don't want to spent time dry firing to fix the "find-the-dot" problem because I'm afraid it would screw me up with my open gun.  On the other hand, I've got many years shooting iron sight guns and can easily pick up the front sight independent of the grip angle.  So, the co-witness sights work for me.  YMMV.

 

Why not use a carry gun with a "Normal" 1911/2011 grip angle? If you want Glock like function and reliability with a "normal" grip angle check out the CZ P10 pistols.

[mvmojo]

5 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Why not use a carry gun with a "Normal" 1911/2011 grip angle? If you want Glock like function and reliability with a "normal" grip angle check out the CZ P10 pistols.

I started out shooting Glocks many years ago and the collection just grew (as did my 1911's).  A lot to be said for Glock's durability, reliability, ease of maintenance, lack of manual safeties, relatively light weight and the fact that my wife is comfortable shooting them.  I'm sure the CZ P10 is a fine gun but the red dot with suppressor height sights on the G19 works for me.

[rowdyb]

No iron sights at all on any of my co guns. They are an unneeded interference mechanically and visually. Why lose the single focal plane benefit for your eyes by adding in irons?? No thanks.

[jwhittin]

Charlie - I’ll double check my movement during gripping as you stated.  I think it’s optimized but I will look closely.  Thanks

[jwhittin]

16 hours ago, rowdyb said:

No iron sights at all on any of my co guns. They are an unneeded interference mechanically and visually. Why lose the single focal plane benefit for your eyes by adding in irons?? No thanks.

Good point.  When everything lines up, the dot just magically appears on the target. I will continue to run without irons.  Thanks

[vluc]

I find the field of view too crowded and busy with irons on my CO guns.  Tried it just to see, didn't care for it.

[shred]

If you are new at the dot, keeping a front sight on is not a bad plan if you can't find the dot in some awkward stance WHO or whatever.  It doesn't need to co-witness, just know where it needs to be to see the dot.

[BeerBaron]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:21 PM, rowdyb said:

No iron sights at all on any of my co guns. They are an unneeded interference mechanically and visually. Why lose the single focal plane benefit for your eyes by adding in irons?? No thanks.

 

Agree 100%. There is no good reason to have irons on a co gun and plenty of good reasons not to as explained well by Charlie. 

 

The two big ‘excuses’ I hear (easier to find the dot, and in case my dot fails mid stage) were addressed completely in Charlie’s post. 

 

Its all about having a reliable presentation of the gun whether that’s from a draw, or coming into a position, or on a lean, or on the move etc etc. and that comes from practice. It can mostly be sorted in dry fire. 

[fishhunter3]

I've watched a lot of people when they first start using a dot , if you pay close attention they all drop their chin  as they draw. so just keep your head more upright . 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:05 PM, fishhunter3 said:

I've watched a lot of people when they first start using a dot , if you pay close attention they all drop their chin  as they draw. so just keep your head more upright . 

 

 

Yep.  The "tactical turtle" or "tactical hunch" that so many people think looks so cool is death when trying to shoot an RDS-equipped pistol.

 

I'll just add my dos centavos to all those who've said using backup sights to find the dot is a cheat for people whose draw basically blows.

[fishhunter3]

19 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Yep.  The "tactical turtle" or "tactical hunch" that so many people think looks so cool is death when trying to shoot an RDS-equipped pistol.

 

I'll just add my dos centavos to all those who've said using backup sights to find the dot is a cheat for people whose draw basically blows.

Thank You. I now have a name for it, "The tactical Turtle " perfect 

[terrydoc]

I used to shoot a Sig 320RX it had suppressor height tritium sights factory fitted absolutely crowded the optic with those big white dots, moved to an X5 with just the front fiber no issues as its low in the screen.  

[DKorn]

My CO gun has a front sight only. It’s there because I also shoot the same gun in Production and didn’t feel like bothering to take the front sight off. The rear sights on my gun (Q5) are on the swappable plate, so I don’t have them when I have a dot on the gun. 
 

I don’t think it helps or hurts me. It’s just there. 

[shred]

That's how mine are set up and I don't think it's a problem at all with the factory low sight.  Basically invisible if you're target-focused like you otta be.  Some suppressor/co-witness/weathervane sight maybe different, but the old-timer Open trick to learn both eyes open and target focus was to tape over the front of the front lens.  If you still see dot on target, you're doing it right.  If you focus on the dot, all you'll see is a wall of tape.  Front sights aren't much different...

 

[rowdyb]

25 minutes ago, shred said:

That's how mine are set up and I don't think it's a problem at all with the factory low sight.  Basically invisible if you're target-focused like you otta be.  Some suppressor/co-witness/weathervane sight maybe different, but the old-timer Open trick to learn both eyes open and target focus was to tape over the front of the front lens.  If you still see dot on target, you're doing it right.  If you focus on the dot, all you'll see is a wall of tape.  Front sights aren't much different...

 

I've seen pics of old dot obscured sights that were built that way on purpose. 

[shred]

Some of the very first dots were occluded-eye style, the Armson OEG the most common (and still made it seems)

 

For a while IPSC was declaring "if you can't see through it, it's not a lens" for rules purposes which led to some ideas, but I think they've come to their senses now.

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:21 AM, rowdyb said:

No iron sights at all on any of my co guns. They are an unneeded interference mechanically and visually. Why lose the single focal plane benefit for your eyes by adding in irons?? No thanks.

To be fair a set of backup iron sights of the proper height don't interfere with using the dot.  You ignore them until you need them.

 

All my carbines have red dot sights and fixed backup sights.  The eye ignores the irons and sees the target and dot in the same plane. 

 

When I get around to sending my carry gun for slide milling it will definitely have a set of back up irons low in the optic's window.  My CO find has the original irons and they are too low to be visible through the glass.