2011 and Carry optics

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

On another topic, I fantasize what it would be like if the magazine capacity for all divisions was 10 rounds. Not advocating such a thing, just wondering how that would effect divisions and what competitors would choose to shoot. It would interesting to see which add ons would really effect speed. Does a compensator reduce times more than a red dot?

Is SAO definitely faster than a tuned striker fired or a DA/SA gun?

 

I had an idea to allow other divisions into next year's 1911 match, but restrict them all to 8 rounds.

 

fwiw, i don't find a difference between a decent DA/SA gun and a 1911. I shoot the same times in steel challenge and on classifiers with either gun.

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

But their Production division was one of the most popular

 

I think would have to ask what is the availability of red dot optics for the rest of the world?  I am asking because I have zero idea.  I do know that ITAR prevents the sale of dots by outlets outside of the us?   Does the rest of the world, which seems to have a larger footprint when it comes to ISPC, have the same access to red dots?

[waktasz]

Production division was popular here 5 years ago too...

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

IPSC runs 15 in Production and Production Optics, too early to tell on the Optics division unless IPSC starts putting out some match data. But their Production division was one of the most popular, I don't think its a magazine capacity issue at all.

 

But IPSC stages are generally lower round count.

 

I think our stage design pushes people toward hi-cap.

 

I shot a sectional the other day with a 32 round stage i shot from 2 positions. Another was 3 positions and only one target was shot from one of those positions. That match would of been pretty lame with a low cap gun. 

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think our stage design pushes people toward hi-cap.

 

I shot a sectional the other day with a 32 round stage i shot from 2 positions. Another was 3 positions and only one target was shot from one of those positions. That match would of been pretty lame with a low cap gun. 

not sure if that's 'our' stage design. I certainly don't see stages like that at nationals, or A1, or A2.

[BritinUSA]

Most people do not shoot Area matches or Nationals. Most members only shoot L1, and in many parts of the country the mantra of 'round-count, round-count, round-count'  is the core of stage design. Most stages I used to shoot in Colorado were around 30 rounds. The only exception was the classifier.

[BritinUSA]

14 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I do know that ITAR prevents the sale of dots by outlets outside of the us?

Caveat: Its been a while since I was involved in ITAR stuff; Generally speaking ITAR prevents individual dealers from exporting unless they are certified as ITAR compliant, manufacturers can also export as long as they comply with the regulations and are also certified.

 

I think Shield red-dot sights are still made in UK, and I'm sure there are other European versions or Chinese knock-offs of major brands that are available.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

not sure if that's 'our' stage design. I certainly don't see stages like that at nationals, or A1, or A2.

 

This is probably a extreme example, but I've shot a lot of matches that weren't vary low cap friendly. And base on a lot of pod casts I've listened to it doesn't seem like it's all that uncommon across the country. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, cbrussell said:

 I think Limited might see the same reduction if SAO guns were allowed in Carry a Optics. 

 

 

Limited IS seeing a massive drop in participation. 

[RJH]

57 minutes ago, Sarge said:

NO WAY would I buy a $6-10k Open gun for 10 round limit. As much as I hate it I would play CO

 

If it was all 10 rounds, I probably would build a single stack open gun. I could have a competitive open gun for a whole lot cheaper than they are now. Right now there's no way I would build a "real" open gun just because of expense

[CC3D]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

For years Limited was the biggest division by far and as such had the most heat at any given local match, so per your logic that was a bad thing?

 

 

Limited is a catch-all division for new and casual shooters, which accounted for a considerable percentage of its player base. That is much different from CO, a division with unprecedented exponential growth over the span of just a few years. Balance is important. 

[BritinUSA]

4 hours ago, euxx said:

The ezwinscore was an USPSA thing that they put to rest in favour of PractiScore.

My mistake, it was WinMSS that IPSC uses for their sanctioned matches. 

[MikeBurgess]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think our stage design pushes people toward hi-cap.

 

I shot a sectional the other day with a 32 round stage i shot from 2 positions. Another was 3 positions and only one target was shot from one of those positions. That match would of been pretty lame with a low cap gun. 

sounds like pretty lame stages regardless of capacity

[cbrussell]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I had an idea to allow other divisions into next year's 1911 match, but restrict them all to 8 rounds.

 

fwiw, i don't find a difference between a decent DA/SA gun and a 1911. I shoot the same times in steel challenge and on classifiers with either gun.

I think that would be really cool. I bet a bunch of interesting guns would show up.

I have toying with going back to single stack. That is where I started; I don’t know switching to Hi/cap Limited really increased my enjoyment. Plus, 8 round single stack magazines always ran; sure a lot less issues than hi-cap and a whole lot cheaper!

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

sounds like pretty lame stages regardless of capacity

 

Yes, those stages were lacking even with a hi-cap gun. There were about 3 stages I thought were kind of trash. The rest were fine. 

 

But I bet a lot of people liked the high HF's on those stages. Some people just want to pull the trigger as fast as they can.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, CC3D said:

Limited is a catch-all division for new and casual shooters, which accounted for a considerable percentage of its player base. That is much different from CO, a division with unprecedented exponential growth over the span of just a few years. Balance is important. 

Balance in wat way?  CO seems to have hit a sweet spot for what people want how is that bad?

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Yes, those stages were lacking even with a hi-cap gun. There were about 3 stages I thought were kind of trash. The rest were fine. 

 

But I bet a lot of people liked the high HF's on those stages. Some people just want to pull the trigger as fast as they can.

Stages are like pizza when they are good they are good, when they are bad they are still pretty good (most of the time)

[euxx]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

IPSC runs 15 in Production and Production Optics, too early to tell on the Optics division unless IPSC starts putting out some match data. But their Production division was one of the most popular, I don't think its a magazine capacity issue at all.

 

But IPSC stages are generally lower round count.

 

You realize that in many countries it is much harder to get a non-Production gun, let alone a heavily customized one like Open, Standard/Limited or even Single Stack/Classic one? Out there Production is just out of the shelf or even a rented gun.

The data is there, but you will have to do the leg work to get it in one place.

[euxx]

6 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

My mistake, it was WinMSS that IPSC uses for their sanctioned matches. 

 

You are a few years behind on that one too.

Not to mention that the IPSC rulebook allows RD to approve any scoring software for L1, L2 and L3 sanctioned matches. Hence PractiScore is a no brainer in quite a few regions.

[terrydoc]

8 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I think would have to ask what is the availability of red dot optics for the rest of the world?  I am asking because I have zero idea.  I do know that ITAR prevents the sale of dots by outlets outside of the us?   Does the rest of the world, which seems to have a larger footprint when it comes to ISPC, have the same access to red dots?

Im in Australia (IPSC Production Optic/ Light) and we have a pretty good selection available obviously more expensive but the range is pretty good at the moment.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, euxx said:

 

You realize that in many countries it is much harder to get a non-Production gun, let alone a heavily customized one like Open, Standard/Limited or even Single Stack/Classic one? Out there Production is just out of the shelf or even a rented gun.

The data is there, but you will have to do the leg work to get it in one place.

 

I said exactly that a while ago, maybe even in this thread, and was told I was wrong.

 

LOL I don't think so......

[Johnny_Chimpo]

14 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I think would have to ask what is the availability of red dot optics for the rest of the world?  I am asking because I have zero idea.  I do know that ITAR prevents the sale of dots by outlets outside of the us?   Does the rest of the world, which seems to have a larger footprint when it comes to ISPC, have the same access to red dots?

 

https://www.optics-trade.eu/us/dot-sights.html

 

From Slovenia, lots of red dots and they even ship here.

[shred]

For IPSC, in lots of countries reloading is heavily restricted or outright banned so that makes factory-ammo divisions more popular.

 

For about a year and a half we had no new shooters at local club matches due to lack of ammo and guns.  Every new shooter in CO was a convert from some other division, many of them from Production by bolting a dot onto something they already had and buying a couple basepads. 

 

In the past few months a few new shooters have appeared coincidental to availability of factory ammo, but until reloading supplies are plentiful, I don't see a lot of shooters moving to reloading-heavy divisions.

 

Probably best to wait until things get back to "normal" before announcing the success or failure of various divisions.

[motosapiens]

39 minutes ago, shred said:

 

For about a year and a half we had no new shooters at local club matches due to lack of ammo and guns.  Every new shooter in CO was a convert from some other division, many of them from Production by bolting a dot onto something they already had and buying a couple basepads. 

 

In the past few months a few new shooters have appeared coincidental to availability of factory ammo, but until reloading supplies are plentiful, I don't see a lot of shooters moving to reloading-heavy divisions.

 

 interesting. we got a pretty large quantity of new shooters pretty steadily over the last 2 years.

[RJH]

39 minutes ago, shred said:

For IPSC, in lots of countries reloading is heavily restricted or outright banned so that makes factory-ammo divisions more popular.

 

For about a year and a half we had no new shooters at local club matches due to lack of ammo and guns.  Every new shooter in CO was a convert from some other division, many of them from Production by bolting a dot onto something they already had and buying a couple basepads. 

 

In the past few months a few new shooters have appeared coincidental to availability of factory ammo, but until reloading supplies are plentiful, I don't see a lot of shooters moving to reloading-heavy divisions.

 

Probably best to wait until things get back to "normal" before announcing the success or failure of various divisions.

 

This is a very solid point. I only started carry-ops because I ran out of primers pretty much for my limited gun, but I could buy  factory 9. Had I been able to get primers, I probably wouldn't have messed with carryops. And when I get primers, I'm pretty sure I'll switch back to limited. Right now I'm splitting between carryops and single stack/l10/limited with 10 round mags in my 1911