New Brass Problems Loading 9mm

[XrayDoc88]

Help me  figure this out.  I've just setup a Dillon XL 750 with all Dillon dies.  I'm using 125 gr, .356" Hornady HAP bullets.  I can load brass with head stamps F.C., Blazer & Speer just fine.  When I load CBC, WIN, S&B, GFL or SIG the cartridges fail the plunk test.  I believe the cartridges are slightly bulged or just a little too fat near the bottom of the bullet, but it's hard to know where they are rubbing for sure.  I've also noticed that when running the press on these brands, they stick a little bit coming out of the powder/expansion die.

 

This is what I think is wrong.  The offending brass is probably a little thicker and my Hornady bullets are .001" larger than most.  Together they make the finished case diameter a skosh too fat.  Does this sound reasonable?  I'm amazed that .001" and possibly the brass would make that big of a difference, but I don't know what else could be wrong.  Have others experienced this problem?  Is there a way to adjust the dies, change dies or change components to make all brass usable?  Thanks!

Edited April 26, 2020 by XrayDoc88

[Alaskapopo]

It’s stepped brass with a ledge inside the brass that buldges the case out when a longer bullet gets seated. 

[stick]

A couple of questions and a couple of suggestions.

 

First, do you lube your brass?

Second, do you know what stepped brass looks like?

 

Personally I don't load military brass and I usually only load the name brands.  I would ditch the GFL, Sig and CBC head stamps.  I'm surprised your having issues with the WIN (Winchester) headstamps.  Are you sure your Sizing die is setup correctly?

[BJB]

5 hours ago, XrayDoc88 said:

.....When I load CBC, WIN, S&B, GFL or SIG the cartridges fail the plunk test.....

 

Those brands are not stepped brass and should load fine for you.  The CBC (Magtech), S&B, GFL (Fiocchi), & SIG brass is often thicker walled but shouldn't be enough to stop you.  I've loaded .tens & tens of thousands  of .356" into that brass just fine on a Dillon 550 with DIllon carbide dies.  Even loaded .357" (coated) into that brass just fine. 

 

I guess the place to start is to know your OAL, your crimp, what are you plunking them into, etc.?  You can also color an offending cartridge with marker, plunk it and see where the marker is rubbed off to see where it's touching.

[AHI]

first ck your sizing die. second run a magnet over your brass. some Winchester and S&B are steel washed brass.

None of the head stamps you listed are stepped. You should not behaving issues otherwise with S&B,GFL,WIN.

Sig is junck. CBC is very thick and loads 115/124 at longer lengths quite well but not 147s that have to be seated

short.

[zzt]

X, I have exactly the same problem with mixed HS brass.  .356" bullets are not the problem.  For major I use same HS, once fired, fully processed brass.  For mixed HS brass that I am cleaning myself, I find it hard to size and the expander sticks in the case and makes it hard to lift the press handle.  It also makes the press jump enough to spill power out of the previous case.  Here is how I solved that problem.

 

I run the case in the tumbler for 30-40 minutes to get most of the crud and tarnish off.  Then I remove all the dies from the press, except for the sizing/decapping die.  I add my Redding 2-step expander.  I lube all the cases thoroughly with Hornady One Shot, including the inside of the case.  I then drop them in the case feeder and go to work.  The lube greatly reduces the effort required to resize, and the TiN coating on the expander, plus the lube eliminates sticking.  When I'm finished 300-400 I drop then in tumbling media and tumble for a couple hours.  That removes all lube and polishes them bright.  You could tumble for shorter times, but I like bright cases.

 

When I reload those cases, I remove the sizing die and the expander/funnel from the powder drop.  The cases sail through the press as slick as can be.  Powder drops are dead on, because there is no jerking of the press when something sticks.  It is actually smoother than using roll sized, fully processed brass.

[Postal Bob]

CBC, S&B, and GFL brass are thicker, and you'll feel the difference when one of them runs through your press. But they always load fine on my press. And I'll assume since you're using a Dillon 750, that you seat and crimp separately. That being said, whenever one of those brands runs through my crimping die, it's tighter fitting with more resistance. So my guess is that you're over crimping, and causing the bulge there. To check, after seating, and before crimping, remove the round and check it for the bulge.

Also, make sure that you're not putting too big of a flare on the case mouth. When they go through the crimping die, the thicker brass will have more downward pressure on the mouths while crimping, and that will cause the bulge. The flare should be just enough where the bullet will sit atop the case without falling off.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Postal Bob

[HesedTech]

Welcome to the world of  reloading 9mm with range brass. 
 

If you search the forum there’s lots of threads which address your problem. CBC is a difficult case to reload because the walls begin to thicken more rapidly than most. 
 

Here’s my experience.

1. Find a bullet profile which will load as long as possible 

2. Use the MBF powder funnel in stead of the Dillon. This one thing will minimize a lot of your issues.

3. You have to sort out the steel cases (yes they are brass colored). 
4. Make sure the casings are relatively clean for reloading

5. I assume you are lubing before running the brass through your process. 

 

There are other techniques and ways of doing things, but those are the basic which should reduce your failures. 

 

[RickT]

I load mixed brass and found that CBC was a bit of an issue when I was using 147gr bullets.  At that time I started to use an FCD, but since I now only load either 115 or 124 gr I never have an issue.  I'll second the use of the MBF powder funnel.  Wouldn't hurt to polish it before using;  I use case lube (Hornady), but it took a certain number of rounds to smooth out the upstroke.  I did try Dillon case lube, but didn't care for same.

[RangerTrace]

Add a U-die and see if your problem goes away.  

[MikeyScuba]

I would add a Lee FCD.  How much flair are you doing with the powder funnel.

 

AHI - Steel brass washed WIN and S&B cases?  I’ve only ever come across 1 steel case (can’t remember HS) and there is no mistaking something is wrong when you try to size a steel case

[PhotoRecon]

Some of the ofb range pick up I find has been fired in a generous chamber leaving it a little oversized at the base where a sizing die can't get to it. Even tried the U die and eventually started roll sizing everything to resolve the issue. Bulged brass really alerts you with more resistance when rolling manually.

 

Even with the roll sizing there are some CBC cases that will still fail the case gauge yet will chamber fine. I pull the CBC rather than hassle with.

[XrayDoc88]

Wow!  Thanks for the information.  I don't know if this will help, but I thought I'd post a picture of the offending brass.  Then I'll try to ask a few more questions.

 

 

[XrayDoc88]

8 hours ago, stick said:

A couple of questions and a couple of suggestions.

 

First, do you lube your brass?

Second, do you know what stepped brass looks like?

 

Personally I don't load military brass and I usually only load the name brands.  I would ditch the GFL, Sig and CBC head stamps.  I'm surprised your having issues with the WIN (Winchester) headstamps.  Are you sure your Sizing die is setup correctly?

I haven't been lubing all my brass with carbide dies.  I have applied some Redding  Imperial Sizing Die Wax to a few cases out of each hundred on my single stage press.  I don't think I have stepped brass, but honestly had never heard of that possibility.  As far as setting up the Dillon sizing die correctly, all I did was screw it down to light contact with the shell plate and then back it off 1/16 of a turn.  Is there another way to check that it's sizing properly?

[XrayDoc88]

6 hours ago, BJB said:

 

Those brands are not stepped brass and should load fine for you.  The CBC (Magtech), S&B, GFL (Fiocchi), & SIG brass is often thicker walled but shouldn't be enough to stop you.  I've loaded .tens & tens of thousands  of .356" into that brass just fine on a Dillon 550 with DIllon carbide dies.  Even loaded .357" (coated) into that brass just fine. 

 

I guess the place to start is to know your OAL, your crimp, what are you plunking them into, etc.?  You can also color an offending cartridge with marker, plunk it and see where the marker is rubbed off to see where it's touching.

I've wondered if my OAL might be a misprint in the 2019 Hodgdon reloading magazine.  For 125 gr Hornady HAP it states a COL of 1.069".  That is the shortest COL for 124/125 gr bullets in the magazine.  A more common COL for that weight of bullet is 1.169".  Do you think that is an error?  Am I seating my bullets too deep?

 

I barely crimp to about .378".  That works fine on the thinner brass.  I'm sure the crimp is more damaging on the thicker brass.  Should I sort brass and change the crimp for non FC, Speer, or Blazer brass?

 

I've plunked into a Sheridan gauge and also into two of my 9mm barrels.  They all stick the same.

[HI5-O]

Looks like the bullets are seated crooked and maybe need a little more crimp. The third round from the left is what I’m looking at. 
 

I use a Redding micrometer seating die and it helps to seat the bullets straight.

[XrayDoc88]

6 hours ago, AHI said:

first ck your sizing die. second run a magnet over your brass. some Winchester and S&B are steel washed brass.

None of the head stamps you listed are stepped. You should not behaving issues otherwise with S&B,GFL,WIN.

Sig is junck. CBC is very thick and loads 115/124 at longer lengths quite well but not 147s that have to be seated

short.

Oh my gosh!  You mean some steel cases look like brass?  I had no idea.  I never buy steel ammo, but didn't realize it could be made to look like brass.  I did have one brass looking case, (WIN I believe) last night that the bullet just dropped into when I placed it by hand.  It was as if the case hadn't been resized.  Was this likely a steel case?  Did I damage my Dillon resizing die?

 

I didn't have many S&B nor GFL.  The WIN came the closest to passing the plunk test.

[XrayDoc88]

6 minutes ago, HI5-O said:

Looks like the bullets are seated crooked and maybe need a little more crimp. The third round from the left is what I’m looking at. 
 

I use a Redding micrometer seating die and it helps to seat the bullets straight.

The bullets are slightly tipped as they get seated.  I was using the Dillon flat nose seating stem.  I might try the round nose stem and perhaps the MBF expander will help the bullets sit more straight.  I also use the Redding micrometer seating die on my Forster and it has worked great.  I guess I can also use that on the Dillon.  I was just trying to use the Dillon dies that came with the press so I could leave my Forster setup as well.

Edited April 26, 2020 by XrayDoc88

[XrayDoc88]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

X, I have exactly the same problem with mixed HS brass.  .356" bullets are not the problem.  For major I use same HS, once fired, fully processed brass.  For mixed HS brass that I am cleaning myself, I find it hard to size and the expander sticks in the case and makes it hard to lift the press handle.  It also makes the press jump enough to spill power out of the previous case.  Here is how I solved that problem.

 

I run the case in the tumbler for 30-40 minutes to get most of the crud and tarnish off.  Then I remove all the dies from the press, except for the sizing/decapping die.  I add my Redding 2-step expander.  I lube all the cases thoroughly with Hornady One Shot, including the inside of the case.  I then drop them in the case feeder and go to work.  The lube greatly reduces the effort required to resize, and the TiN coating on the expander, plus the lube eliminates sticking.  When I'm finished 300-400 I drop then in tumbling media and tumble for a couple hours.  That removes all lube and polishes them bright.  You could tumble for shorter times, but I like bright cases.

 

When I reload those cases, I remove the sizing die and the expander/funnel from the powder drop.  The cases sail through the press as slick as can be.  Powder drops are dead on, because there is no jerking of the press when something sticks.  It is actually smoother than using roll sized, fully processed brass.

Thank you for the detail.  It almost sounds like you might be back to loading at single stage press speeds however. 

 

Are you wet tumbling or dry vibrating?

[XrayDoc88]

5 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Welcome to the world of  reloading 9mm with range brass. 
 

If you search the forum there’s lots of threads which address your problem. CBC is a difficult case to reload because the walls begin to thicken more rapidly than most. 
 

Here’s my experience.

1. Find a bullet profile which will load as long as possible 

2. Use the MBF powder funnel in stead of the Dillon. This one thing will minimize a lot of your issues.

3. You have to sort out the steel cases (yes they are brass colored). 
4. Make sure the casings are relatively clean for reloading

5. I assume you are lubing before running the brass through your process. 

 

There are other techniques and ways of doing things, but those are the basic which should reduce your failures. 

 

1. I don't really understand how COLs are determined.  I understand that if a bullet is seated too deeply, there is less room for the powder which causes higher pressure.  But if you seated the bullet "long", wouldn't that just decrease the maximum velocity of the bullet?  My manual says to use a COL of 1.069".  If I just seated longer, might these problems mostly go away?

2. I'm following this advice.

4. I deprime and then wet tumble my brass before it gets resized.

5. Again, lube all pistol cases on carbide dies?  What's your favorite way to lube in bulk?

 

[XrayDoc88]

3 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Add a U-die and see if your problem goes away.  

What is a U-die and why do you prefer that?

[RangerTrace]

11 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

What is a U-die and why do you prefer that?

Lee and EGW make a U-die (undersized) sizing die that takes all of the bulge out and makes the cases a tad smaller.  I've not had a case fail the case gauge since I started using them.  You do have to make sure the die almost touches the shell plate.....

[zzt]

17 minutes ago, XrayDoc88 said:

Thank you for the detail.  It almost sounds like you might be back to loading at single stage press speeds however. 

 

Are you wet tumbling or dry vibrating?

 

No, it goes like lightning.  The only downside is it takes twice as many strokes, because the cases go through twice.  I use dry media with a little case polish in it.  The quickest was to lube is to put the cases in a large bin, spray with One Shot, toss them around for 10 seconds, spray again and toss some more.  The lube distributes itself around the case and makes resizing almost effortless.   BTW, I only do this for 9mm cases.  40sw and 45 being straight walled cases do not present any problems.

[MikeyScuba]

Push the rounds into the gauge and out a few times and look where it’s rubbing.  I’m betting the bullets are going in crooked.

[chevrofreak]

Honestly, I think Dillon seating dies suck.   The Hornady custom grade die seats the bullets far straighter for me.