Why shooting major when minor has several advantages?

[edison]

9 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

The source is Storeg's post in Instagram, that @ anonymouscuban posted in this topic.

 

It's from Ben Stoeger & Joel Park's soon to be released book.

[Sean_ht]

16 hours ago, waktasz said:

Consider this....

 

When you shoot major, the target get bigger. 

Can you shoot a larger target faster than a smaller one? 

 

 

(I can't believe I even bothered to reply in this thread, lol)

 

I understand how targets gets larger is a method that people use to describe major vs minor, but there is a flaw in that statement. A-zone does not get bigger, no matter what load you shoot.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, waktasz said:

It's not that the advantages to minor are negligible, it's that there are none.

I interpret your comment  as you very much like major.  But look at the mentioned points about the advantage of minor from another perspective. 

For someone who shoots just major, I assume you agree adding a magazine extension is an advantage (within the boundaries of total magazine length). It will add 2-3 rounds to each magazine. It may not be much, but you can't ignore its advantage. 

 

[IVC]

52 minutes ago, Stafford said:

A bit off-topic, but this thread has me thinking.... Should shooters in Production class be more concerned about accuracy than speed? Or is it all relevant in that you're shooting against other Production shooters and speed is still king?

The calculation is straightforward, even if making decision will depend on how many points you're dropping. 

 

First, here is the math. You have your HF defined as HF = P/t, but want to know how much faster you have to be when you drop points and want to keep the same HF. So, you are solving the following equation: HF = (P - dP) / (t - dt). Notice that you're keeping the same hit factor because you want to figure out how points relate to time without changing the score. If you expand it, you get (t - dt) HF = (P - dP), or (t HF) - P + dP = dt HF. If you divide by HF to solve for dt, you end up with t - P/HF + dP/HF = dt, or dt = dP/HF (since t - P/HF = 0 by definition of HF). 

 

Now that you know that each point (dP = 1) is equivalent of 1/HF in time, you have a good starting point for determining accuracy vs. speed. In major, shooting hard partials and taking two C's will almost always be better than taking extra time to get two A's and risk no-shoot or hard-cover since it will cost you about 2/5 = 0.4s on a 5HF factor stage (only 0.2s on 10 HF), while you would have to slow down quite a bit to get those A's, not only because there is extra risk of a miss, but because partial A zone can be significantly smaller than the exposed C zone. 

 

Similarly, when looking at Production by itself, it will come down to the expected HF for the stage. If it's high HF, you're better of hosing because 1/HF penalty is smaller (e.g., it's only 0.2s for C in minor on a 10 HF stage). If it's low HF stage, you're better of spending extra time to get A's. The calculation will be stage-dependent. 

 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

I "am not dure how much USPSA you shoot ", but the number of rounds in the mags changes the shooting strategy and stage planning.

This is true, but the effect becomes significant only if the capacity is really low and reloads are really slow (wink, nudge, Revolver, wink). In Limited, the capacity gain you get in minor is negligible and you would be hard pressed to find a stage where it would change the stage strategy, let alone be a factor. If you ever run into a stage of that kind, there will be a movement that will allow you to throw in the extra reload. 

 

In Single Stack it's more of an issue because it can affect the strategy, but having 8 rounds in major with the restriction of "no more than 8 shots..." in the rules makes it almost a non-issue. Where it matters is, e.g., Revolver shooting Tic-Toc classifier that is "8 reload 8" and Revolver major is only 6, so you end up with two extra standing reloads (slow to boot) when shooting major. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by IVC

[Stafford]

11 minutes ago, IVC said:

The calculation is straightforward, even if making decision will depend on how many points you're dropping. 

 

First, here is the math. You have your HF defined as HF = P/t, but want to know how much faster you have to be when you drop points and want to keep the same HF. So, you are solving the following equation: HF = (P - dP) / (t - dt). Notice that you're keeping the same hit factor because you want to figure out how points relate to time without changing the score. If you expand it, you get (t - dt) HF = (P - dP), or (t HF) - P + dP = dt HF. If you divide by HF to solve for dt, you end up with t - P/HF + dP/HF = dt, or dt = dP/HF (since t - P/HF = 0 by definition of HF). 

 

Now that you know that each point (dP = 1) is equivalent of 1/HF in time, you have a good starting point for determining accuracy vs. speed. In major, shooting hard partials and taking two C's will almost always be better than taking extra time to get two A's and risk no-shoot or hard-cover since it will cost you about 2/5 = 0.4s on a 5HF factor stage (only 0.2s on 10 HF), while you would have to slow down quite a bit to get those A's, not only because there is extra risk of a miss, but because partial A zone can be significantly smaller than the exposed C zone. 

 

Similarly, when looking at Production by itself, it will come down to the expected HF for the stage. If it's high HF, you're better of hosing because 1/HF penalty is smaller (e.g., it's only 0.2s for C in minor on a 10 HF stage). If it's low HF stage, you're better of spending extra time to get A's. The calculation will be stage-dependent. 

 

 

Thanks, the final paragraph helps a lot. How do you know the HF for a stage. Is it on the stage instructions? 

[teros135]

1 hour ago, Sean_ht said:

 

Agree, the point you make has been illustrated in a previous post:

The source is Storeg's post in Instagram, that @ anonymouscuban posted in this topic.

 

Uh, Storeg?  Who?

[teros135]

1 hour ago, Dutchman195 said:

Reading the OPs first post.

 

I will agree that if you just want to hit A class on paper. Yea, doesnt matter what you shoot. I would say the top guys will shoot a classifier fast with all As, so it really doesnt matter the caliber 

 

Want to be a 'competitive' A or higher, it will matter. SS is really the only division that Major/Minor is a real battle and it depends solely on the match. Open & Lim major will always win. Someone said you have to aim for 90% of the points in a match. If you shoot Major, thats a A/C on every target or a 1 to 1 ration. IF you shoot minor you have to shoot was more As than Cs

 

If you're at mid to high B class and are shooting for A class, it might be useful to discuss fine points and split hairs.  You're working on fine-tuning skills (and knowledge) you already possess.

 

OTOH, if you're at lower C class and have, say, 8 classifiers on record, in only one division, it's a lot longer and harder climb.  You're not likely working with a broad knowledge  base yet, and you may have more ideas than actual experience.  It's going to take longer.

[SwedishMoose]

2 hours ago, Stafford said:

A bit off-topic, but this thread has me thinking.... Should shooters in Production class be more concerned about accuracy than speed? Or is it all relevant in that you're shooting against other Production shooters and speed is still king?

 

I'd say there's a bit more throttle control/accuracy focus, but going fast is still important. It just hurts more to drop more charlies than it would if you were major HF. Trying to shoot production like it's open is a pretty fast way to lose production though. 

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, Sean_ht said:

 

I understand how targets gets larger is a method that people use to describe major vs minor, but there is a flaw in that statement. A-zone does not get bigger, no matter what load you shoot.

 

 

 

I interpret your comment  as you very much like major.  But look at the mentioned points about the advantage of minor from another perspective. 

For someone who shoots just major, I assume you agree adding a magazine extension is an advantage (within the boundaries of total magazine length). It will add 2-3 rounds to each magazine. It may not be much, but you can't ignore its advantage. 

 

 

The general aiming area you are using does in fact get larger, therefore you can go faster, when shooting major.

With minor yes, the gun recoils slightly less, but the target area is smaller so you must be more precise and go slightly slower. 


2-3 extra rounds is small advantage, on a small percentage of stages. I shoot CO and Limited currently, and on field courses I will do one reload in both divisions. On the rare 22 or 23 round stages, I don't have to reload in CO, but there is almost always a place to fit in a reload if you have to on those stages. I've timed myself and if the position involves 3 steps or more, it's not any slower to do a reload compared to not. 

 

If it was an advantage in any way at all, don't you think someone would try it at a major level match?  NO one does. 

The closest thing you have is in Single Stack, where you get 25% more rounds in your gun with minor. In that case it may be worth it, but nationals results still say Major is better. 

[waktasz]

The people that say to run it back to back are right. Go out with both guns, build some stages, and compare your hit factors between major and minor. It should be so obviously evident to you after that, that this thread wouldn't have to exist. 

[Sean_ht]

46 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Uh, Storeg?  Who?

Sorry, mistype, ben Stoeger 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Sean_ht

[Sean_ht]

11 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

The general aiming area you are using does in fact get larger, therefore you can go faster, when shooting major.

With minor yes, the gun recoils slightly less, but the target area is smaller so you must be more precise and go slightly slower. 


2-3 extra rounds is small advantage, on a small percentage of stages. I shoot CO and Limited currently, and on field courses I will do one reload in both divisions. On the rare 22 or 23 round stages, I don't have to reload in CO, but there is almost always a place to fit in a reload if you have to on those stages. I've timed myself and if the position involves 3 steps or more, it's not any slower to do a reload compared to not. 

 

If it was an advantage in any way at all, don't you think someone would try it at a major level match?  NO one does. 

The closest thing you have is in Single Stack, where you get 25% more rounds in your gun with minor. In that case it may be worth it, but nationals results still say Major is better. 

 

I get your point, basically the disadvantage of one additional point deduction when hitting a C-zone with a minor load (compare with major), overcomes its advantages (extra rounds+less recoil and presumably faster run). 

 

[waktasz]

No you still don't understand. You are going to be FASTER shooting major, because you can aim less. 

 

[bdpaz]

You are all so focused on just shooting minor that you have missed the combination that will take you straight to GM and match wins: Shooting minor while wearing shooting gloves!

[Balakay]

18 minutes ago, waktasz said:

No you still don't understand. You are going to be FASTER shooting major, because you can aim less. 

 

It is time for us all to disengage.  He has been shooting USPSA for < 1 year and is barely out of D-class (yeah, I checked).  He has never shot a Major power factor division.

 

Sean, you either don't know what you don't know or are enjoying the internet banter

[dansedgli]

I encourage everyone to shoot minor in standard division against me. 

 

 

[Sean_ht]

2 hours ago, Balakay said:

It is time for us all to disengage.  He has been shooting USPSA for < 1 year and is barely out of D-class (yeah, I checked).  He has never shot a Major power factor division.

 

Sean, you either don't know what you don't know or are enjoying the internet banter

 

Sad to see again and again, when people fall short in a conversation they start to attack the person. You simply demonstrate how you are not capable of participating in a conversation about such a simple topic. 

 

Getting back to what you have just expressed about me: 

1. Yes, I have been shooting for less than a year, and I started as a C-level shooter. Since my first match, I've kept on improving and progressing every match. Don't worry, I will overtake you very soon  . BTW, you did not need to search for it, you could simply ask me and I would let you know. 
2. Of course I have not shot a major PF in a match. I said that in my previous posts in this topic:

Quote

I had shot PCC, CO, and Production in the past (all minor), and recently decided to shoot limited (major). Actually I will shoot my first limited match at the next weekend. I know some of the pros and cons of each load, but wanted to know how much weight each has, specially in a classifier stage. 

 

 

I refer you to what ima45dv8 has posted couple of hours ago:

7 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

There's been a few displays in this thread that don't meet Brian's long-established code of conduct. 

 

From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Quote

Posting Guidelines

Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.
No trolling. No alternate accounts.

 

Maybe it is hard for you to understand that if someone ask a question, it is because that person doesn't know the answer.  I hope one day you grow up, and learn how to engage in a conversation.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Sean_ht

[MikeBurgess]

On 2/15/2020 at 10:30 AM, Sean_ht said:

Considering the goal be to become an A or higher -level shooter, it is required to land all shots in the A-zone in the classifier stages. So why bother shooting major in the divisions in which both the minor and the major are allowed?

 

Perhaps some can argue shooting minor creates less recoil, so better control and faster second shot, much cheaper than shooting a major cal., and as a bonus one or more extra rounds in magazine. 

The only downside of minor is the scoring of 1 point less in C-zone compare with the major. Yes, it does effect the overall ranking in a match, but not the classifier (assuming the goal is to gain HF that qualifies for A/G/GM).

 

I am basically trying to understand the justification for shooting 40SW/45 in limited or SS division, and 38-supper/9-major in open-division. 

For the open, I know the 9-major has an edge over minor because of the effectiveness of the comp. However, I have tried both 9- major and minor in an open handgun, and the difference was negligible. Basically comp. helps to manage the recoil in two different ways, the extra gas pressure of 9-major makes the comp. to be effective, and for 9-minor, the comp. acts as an extra weight in the end of the muzzle.

The assumption that you have to shoot all As to classify well is wrong,  there are many classifiers with partial targets and with major scoring you are able to shoot much further away from the no-shoot or hard cover and end up with a better score. 

 

If your goal is to make A or better in limited it can be done with Minor, I have seen a guy make Master with a Minor gun, but it is easier with Major, and the guy I saw do it with minor will tell you the same thing.

[Sean_ht]

12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

The assumption that you have to shoot all As to classify well is wrong,  there are many classifiers with partial targets and with major scoring you are able to shoot much further away from the no-shoot or hard cover and end up with a better score. 

 

If your goal is to make A or better in limited it can be done with Minor, I have seen a guy make Master with a Minor gun, but it is easier with Major, and the guy I saw do it with minor will tell you the same thing.

Thanks, finally a respond that actually relates to the topic!

If that is the case, I was under a wrong impression that for a A/G/GM level HF, it is all about how fast someone can shoot all A-zones.

[cnote]

20 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

Interesting. Where did you get this chart?

Basically in a 19sec stage, shooting 75%A+25%C, is almost equivalent of shooing 2sec faster (about 10% faster) with 25%A+75%C (major). But for minor, it is 50%A+50%C.

Where is a 7.9 HF almost equivalent to a 7.4 HF.  A half a hit factor could be multiple placements lower depending on the stage.

[Sean_ht]

5 minutes ago, cnote said:

Where is a 7.9 HF almost equivalent to a 7.4 HF.  A half a hit factor could be multiple placements lower depending on the stage.

I was comparing apples with apples, and oranges with oranges:

 

Major:

• 75%A + 25%C at 19.3 Sec: HF 7.87
• 25%A + 75%C at 17.3 Sec: HF 7.86 

Minor:

• 75%A + 25%C at 19.3 Sec: HF 7.46
• 50%A + 50%C at 17.3 Sec: HF 7.39

 

So it is 7.87 vs 7.86, and 7.46 vs 7.39.

[bret]

6 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

It doesn’t work that way. The fastest and most accurate shooters in the entire world all choose major in Limited.  Always.

 

When discussing high hit factor stages like a classifier or a fast-paced field course? C’s barely hurt at all.

 

When faced with a cruel partial target? You’ll see a proficient shooter rail across the other ones, transition to the partial, and punch two Charlies in the shoulder without hitting the brakes. There’s no incentive to hit the A zone at all.

 

When shooting on the move? Cs don’t hurt as long as you move your feet fast. The entire C zone is your aiming area. Split fast while running hard in this position... while Mr Minor has to work harder to chase the Alphas.
 

As long as your time is noticeably quicker than the minor guy who has to chase Alphas on those targets you will stomp him into the ground every time.

 

Things like that are how Major dominates.

 

In USPSA speed and hits are both factors in your score, and a lot of guys take years to truly understand how often you come out ahead if you shoot the stage 10% faster but drop a few more points

 

Switching topics back to classifiers:

 

If anyone tells you that you need all As on your classifiers, ignore any other advice they ever give you.

 

Even in Production, a few Cs on an M or GM classifier are the expectation. (My very first M class Production classifier had a great time, flawless reload, and 3Cs and a D.)

 

If you are accurate then Minor is the way to go, if you are shooting Minor, you should be faster or at least as fast as shooting Major.

But very few people are accurate enough to overcome the loss of points in Minor.

[teros135]

For me, I'll just take in the thoughts of those that have experience with this and aren't just being theoretical. 

 

We can also look at the stats from last year's nationals for SS, Limited, etc regarding power factor.  When 29 of the top 40 in SS are shooting Major (including the first 6 finishers and 8 of the top 10), these folks may actually know something.  They must have believed their choices were optimal, for them, and they surely had the experience to make those choices. 

 

And the first Limited Minor shooter at Nats last year was at 74th place.  There were only 19 Minor, out of 225 finishers. (Source:  Practiscore Competitor)

 

Like many have said on BE in the past, maybe it's best to spend time in practice, instead of arguing theoretical on the Web.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by teros135
Added stats from 2019 Limited Nats

[bdpaz]

57 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

The assumption that you have to shoot all As to classify well is wrong,  there are many classifiers with partial targets and with major scoring you are able to shoot much further away from the no-shoot or hard cover and end up with a better score. 

 

If your goal is to make A or better in limited it can be done with Minor, I have seen a guy make Master with a Minor gun, but it is easier with Major, and the guy I saw do it with minor will tell you the same thing.

 

34 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

Thanks, finally a respond that actually relates to the topic!

If that is the case, I was under a wrong impression that for a A/G/GM level HF, it is all about how fast someone can shoot all A-zones.

 

It is not "..finally...". This point has been mentioned several times, once very early in this thread, and you (apparently) have not noticed it until now. I believe that not responding to things like that are part of the reason others are becoming frustrated with this discussion  and suggesting that you aren't interested their replies.

[teros135]

55 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

If that is the case, I was under a wrong impression that for a A/G/GM level HF, it is all about how fast someone can shoot all A-zones.

 

Yes, that is an incorrect assumption.