PCC and Props

[IVC]

2 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Seriously, a prone position in a stage isn't all that punitive if it's the last shooting position.

Can mess up with race holsters, though. I had it twist the muzzle support on DAA Race Master even though it was loaded with Loctite. 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, gerritm said:

But 1 handed PCC is not safe. And penalizing the PCC guys with no alternative to 1 handed is not right. Should always be a safe way to shoot the stage for all.

 

57 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I'm a hard disagree on this point,

 

unfortunately the rules are written from that point of view.

 

Shooting 1 handed is a skill that is learned, whether it's pistol or rifle. PCC actually has less recoil than a handgun, so it's just a matter of holding the gun and not of any recoil control or muzzle flip control. There is nothing inherently unsafe about shooting PCC one handed, especially since it is braced against the shoulder and still has two points of support (instead of three), compared to gun which goes from two to one when shot one-handed. 

 

USPSA has the rule and they don't have to justify it. If they do, as is the case here, it's just to provide *their* reasoning. The reasoning doesn't make it so, though. In short, it can't be done in a USPSA match, but whether it's safe is wide open for debate. 

[ima45dv8]

27 minutes ago, IVC said:

Can mess up with race holsters, though. I had it twist the muzzle support on DAA Race Master even though it was loaded with Loctite. 

Honestly, that's never been a consideration when I was setting up a stage that would include a prone element.

Equipment choice like that is on the shooter.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said:

Honestly, that's never been a consideration when I was setting up a stage that would include a prone element.

Equipment choice like that is on the shooter.

Agreed. I like to use prone and shoot prone on occasion

[HCH]

4 hours ago, gerritm said:

I have no problem carrying something and either shooting with it while holding it or setting it down. But 1 handed PCC is not safe. And penalizing the PCC guys with no alternative to 1 handed is not right. Should always be a safe way to shoot the stage for all.

 

gerritm

 

Im having a hard time figuring out how a 9mm rifle being fired from one hand is “unsafe” but shooting a Major Limited gun WHO is perfectly acceptable. 

 

IMO, the way the rule is written sounds to me like a WSB can’t dictate that a PCC shooter ONLY touch the gun with one hand. 

 

If the only practical way to engage a target with a PCC is one-handed, I don’t see the problem. This is a “practical” shooting organization. 

[shred]

Quote

 

Im having a hard time figuring out how a 9mm rifle being fired from one hand is “unsafe” but shooting a Major Limited gun WHO is perfectly acceptable. 
 

 

Same here.  I even tried it with a Tommy gun and  50 round drum loaded with 230gr .45 ACP to get the weight up.

 

Not a problem.  Turn and Draw starts aren't difficult either.

 

But USPSA wanted 'Easy' for PCC, so they got it.

 

[egd5]

I don't see shooting pcc with one hand as unsafe either.  I may not be able to hit much with it, but it's not unsafe.

[Talon75]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:42 PM, RadarTech said:

We discussed this extensively for Area 8 last year as staff and with Troy.

My opinion then and reinforced by Troy is that the stage procedure includes prop manipulation that forces someone to shoot one handed.

An example or 2 of legal-

Ammo can must be transported from start to finish.


An example or more of illegal—
Ammo can must be held or carried at all times except to clear jabs from start to finish and may not placed on the ground or other object except to clear jams.

A Rhodesian wall where one must hold the rope to see around the wall to be able to shoot the targets.

A port opening lever that must be held to keep a port open in order to engage targets only seen from that port.


In these examples of illegal presentation it is required by the stage procedure or means to shoot the stage to use a hand to hold, manipulate or do something OTHER than hold the PCC.








 

I would only disagree with the ammo can example, if required to not set on ground or other object, PCC could easily hold between their legs to shoot with both hands , not forced to shoot single handed.

[gerritm]

On 1/31/2020 at 8:19 PM, shred said:

Same here.  I even tried it with a Tommy gun and  50 round drum loaded with 230gr .45 ACP to get the weight up.

 

Not a problem.  Turn and Draw starts aren't difficult either.

 

But USPSA wanted 'Easy' for PCC, so they got it.

 

Not talking about 1 handed against the shoulder straight ahead. I have shot a tommy gun and they are heavy. Try it as the stage was described holding onto a rope with the left & right hand, leaning out as far as the rope and body will allow with a wall blocking you so you have to stretch and then shoot back behind the wall to get the inside targets left and right handed. It was not the 2 outer targets, but the 2 inner ones behind the wall. That was the issue with safety. 

 

Turn & draw with a PCC, do you really want them to sweep everyone behind them as they turn, whether the pcc is muzzle up or not? 

 

Make the stage as difficult as you want, not a problem, just make it safe and doable for all.

 

gerritm

 

 

[shred]

4 hours ago, gerritm said:

Not talking about 1 handed against the shoulder straight ahead. I have shot a tommy gun and they are heavy. Try it as the stage was described holding onto a rope with the left & right hand, leaning out as far as the rope and body will allow with a wall blocking you so you have to stretch and then shoot back behind the wall to get the inside targets left and right handed. It was not the 2 outer targets, but the 2 inner ones behind the wall. That was the issue with safety. 

 

Not significantly more so than with a pistol IMO.  Yeah it's possible to have some extreme things but it's nowhere near impossible to shoot a PCC one handed safely with even a tiny bit of training.

 

4 hours ago, gerritm said:

Turn & draw with a PCC, do you really want them to sweep everyone behind them as they turn, whether the pcc is muzzle up or not? 

 

No, keep the muzzle downrange and turn around the gun.  Not difficult at all.  If you have to change your grip along the way. so be it.

 

 

[RadarTech]

It was said here—
The stage should be safe for all..

Most of us should have no problem doing a PCC one handed... but that doesn’t account for the juniors, or the really petite ladies or a petite junior lady...

And we all know it only takes that one that thought they could do it and someone get injured and who is them to blame?


Ladies are said to be the fastest growing segment of our sport...
You can tell us all how easy it is, and how you can do it.

But that goes right back to the same position..
“If I can do it, and you can’t sorry- not my problem either shoot it or don’t come to the match”.

This goes back to another position...
if a match is so difficult to shoot, or it isn’t fun, then how many will show up to shoot it?
And following that how many will you need to cover the expenses of the event?

In the end — agree or not— matches are an entertainment industry... if you want to make it hard or require stuff that isn’t fun- you lose attendance. At some point that loss will mean the match is no longer there...

[IVC]

On 1/31/2020 at 2:57 PM, ima45dv8 said:

Honestly, that's never been a consideration when I was setting up a stage that would include a prone element.

Equipment choice like that is on the shooter.

 

On 1/31/2020 at 4:56 PM, Sarge said:

Agreed. I like to use prone and shoot prone on occasion

 

And it shouldn't be a consideration as it is indeed on the shooter. I was just pointing out one of the potential considerations if the shooter is not used to going prone...

[Ontos]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:11 PM, ima45dv8 said:

Hmmm...

 

I remember some stage designs that were popular some years back that finished with a platform to shoot from, a large wall blocking the view to the targets (the wall was wider than the platform), and a rope somewhere around the middle of the wall. The shooter had to hold the rope in one hand and lean out fairly aggressively to engage the remaining targets. The shooter was compelled to shoot one-handed.

 

I guess that wouldn't be legal today under 1.1.5.4.  Too bad. It's actually a fun challenge.

 

As a PCC shooter, I think I’d say “compelled” isn’t really the same as “forced”.

 

Would it kinda suck? Sure... But that might make it fun, too.  I don’t think it would be illegal. 

[Ontos]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:42 PM, RadarTech said:

We discussed this extensively for Area 8 last year as staff and with Troy.

My opinion then and reinforced by Troy is that the stage procedure includes prop manipulation that forces someone to shoot one handed.

An example or 2 of legal-

Ammo can must be transported from start to finish.


An example or more of illegal—
Ammo can must be held or carried at all times except to clear jabs from start to finish and may not placed on the ground or other object except to clear jams.

A Rhodesian wall where one must hold the rope to see around the wall to be able to shoot the targets.

A port opening lever that must be held to keep a port open in order to engage targets only seen from that port.


In these examples of illegal presentation it is required by the stage procedure or means to shoot the stage to use a hand to hold, manipulate or do something OTHER than hold the PCC.



NOW—

IF you give them ability to shoot both hands , but don’t require them to shoot 1 handed — that is fully legal... IE— position A is a hard lean that would be better done by grabbing a wall and leaning out but that target or array is available from Position B without said lean... or that array COULD be shot there with both hands... that would be legal but somewhat questionable— if that makes the stage difficulty unreasonably difficult for different heights and sizes of competitors. (1.1.6)




 

I would agree with almost everything here but the part in bold... And only because I recently shot a match where this was required.

 

While I shot it one handed because the targets were close, and it was just faster to do so, it would have been relatively easy to hold onto the rope with the same hand as the support hand on my hand guard. 

 

With a a rope or handle, it’s easily doable. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ontos
Formatting

[Ontos]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:08 PM, egd5 said:

I don't see shooting pcc with one hand as unsafe either.  I may not be able to hit much with it, but it's not unsafe.

 

Same.

[motosapiens]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:11 PM, HCH said:

 

Im having a hard time figuring out how a 9mm rifle being fired from one hand is “unsafe” but shooting a Major Limited gun WHO is perfectly acceptable. 

 

 

pcc shooters are mostly whiny little girls who didn't get a pony for christmas. They don't have the strength or testicles of open shooters. Duh.

 

We had one of those holding onto a rope stages a couple years ago at nationals in st george, probably just before pcc's were introduced. Of course we were told the stages wouldn't change because of pcc, which is obviously a lie. The change to the stage designs is why I would prefer to see separate matches for pcc only. I would probably even participate in them.

Edited February 12, 2020 by motosapiens

[Ontos]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

pcc shooters are mostly whiny little girls who didn't get a pony for christmas. They don't have the strength or testicles of open shooters. Duh.

 

We had one of those holding onto a rope stages a couple years ago at nationals in st george, probably just before pcc's were introduced. Of course we were told the stages wouldn't change because of pcc, which is obviously a lie. The change to the stage designs is why I would prefer to see separate matches for pcc only. I would probably even participate in them.

 

::sigh::

 

Ok...

[motosapiens]

Note also that most things that must be carried can still be carried while keeping 2 hands on your gun (pcc or pistol). Most reasonable people find it easier, faster and more accurate to shoot with one hand in that situation, but there is often someone that tries to be creative.

Edited February 12, 2020 by motosapiens

[Schutzenmeister]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

pcc shooters are mostly whiny little girls who didn't get a pony for christmas. They don't have the strength or testicles of open shooters. Duh.

 

We had one of those holding onto a rope stages a couple years ago at nationals in st george, probably just before pcc's were introduced. Of course we were told the stages wouldn't change because of pcc, which is obviously a lie. The change to the stage designs is why I would prefer to see separate matches for pcc only. I would probably even participate in them.

 

But remember ... You can keep your doctor! 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

But remember ... You can keep your doctor! 

Never fell for either lie!

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

pcc shooters are mostly whiny little girls who didn't get a pony for christmas. They don't have the strength or testicles of open shooters. Duh.

 

We had one of those holding onto a rope stages a couple years ago at nationals in st george, probably just before pcc's were introduced. Of course we were told the stages wouldn't change because of pcc, which is obviously a lie. The change to the stage designs is why I would prefer to see separate matches for pcc only. I would probably even participate in them.

[CrashDodson]

Just saw this posted on facebook.

 

Is this stage legal?  Can you just makeup how you are going to apply procedural?  If you were shooting PCC what would you do?

 

[Ontos]

8 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Just saw this posted on facebook.

 

Is this stage legal?  Can you just makeup how you are going to apply procedural?  If you were shooting PCC what would you do?

 

What kind of case?

[ziebart]

Legal stage

 

8.2.4.1 prohibits the stage briefing, not stage itself.

 

ETA 10.2.2 procedural penalties

 

You can shoot without case if its on either barrel. You can also shoot while holding it and the carbine.

 

It would be a significant advantage to not follow the WSB so Id say they can spell out how to apply the procedural as I've seen that done before at level 2 matches.

 

As to how to shoot it. It depends on size/shape/ect of the case. I'd probably shoot some targets without it and others with it. But it all depends on how it actually looks on the ground

Edited February 14, 2020 by ziebart
Added 10.2.2

[Ontos]

I’ll just shoot it like this...

 

Bring it.