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CrashDodson

PCC and Props

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I have not been to a USPSA match since PCC came about that required some sort of prop manipulation that would then require you to shoot one handed.

 

With having PCC now and I believe its against the rules to force PCC to shoot with one hand, can you no longer have stages that require you carry something or pull and hold onto some sort of rope or handle anymore?  

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“1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand/side, provided that only one hand/side, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots required. Stage procedures may never require the PCC to be fired using only one hand.”

  I believe this means you can’t tell them to. But if you have a rope to hold so a port will stay open they can choose to use one hand or use two hands and still hold rope.
 

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Hmm.  I've seen some stage video where you had to take an object and move it from A to B and place it somewhere in order to activate something.  Pistol shooters shot one handed while moving from A to B....but I guess they did not HAVE to do that.  I guess that would really handicap pcc shooters and maybe not be fair.   The last time I shot a stage at a major that had this, PCC was not a thing yet. 

Edited by CrashDodson

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Ive seen weighted ammo cans. Needed be in hand or in a box down range. This allowed for your option for shooting with it as you moved thru the stage or running down, dumping it off, and finishing the stage in a retreat type fashion. Lots of different plans.

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4 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Hmm.  I've seen some stage video where you had to take an object and move it from A to B and place it somewhere in order to activate something.  Pistol shooters shot one handed while moving from A to B....but I guess they did not HAVE to do that.  I guess that would really handicap pcc shooters and maybe not be fair.   The last time I shot a stage at a major that had this, PCC was not a thing yet. 

I have seen really hard leans where PCC was shot one handed. But usually if they could save time buy shooting other than intended targets around the corner.

 When it comes to fairness, remember PCC only shoots against PCC . As long as things stay safe I don’t care how hard PCC has it.

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Hmmm...

 

I remember some stage designs that were popular some years back that finished with a platform to shoot from, a large wall blocking the view to the targets (the wall was wider than the platform), and a rope somewhere around the middle of the wall. The shooter had to hold the rope in one hand and lean out fairly aggressively to engage the remaining targets. The shooter was compelled to shoot one-handed.

 

I guess that wouldn't be legal today under 1.1.5.4.  Too bad. It's actually a fun challenge.

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2 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Hmmm...

 

I remember some stage designs that were popular some years back that finished with a platform to shoot from, a large wall blocking the view to the targets (the wall was wider than the platform), and a rope somewhere around the middle of the wall. The shooter had to hold the rope in one hand and lean out fairly aggressively to engage the remaining targets. The shooter was compelled to shoot one-handed.

 

I guess that wouldn't be legal today under 1.1.5.4.  Too bad. It's actually a fun challenge.

I came across some match video of the stage I think your talking about and was wondering about how that would play out today with PCC

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That video was probably shot with an 8mm home-movie camera. :D

 

I don't think it would be allowed today. As Sarge said, some may choose to lean out somewhere/sometime and shoot a PCC one-handed, but that would have to be their choice and not something they would be forced to do.

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You can still run such stages in matches that don't recognize PCC.

 

You can also provide an alternate option for PCC to engage targets without forcing them to shoot one-handed. I saw a video recently where shooters had one hand handcuffed and could shoot one-handed. There was also another option (like undoing the handcuff or something...I can't remember exactly) so PCC wasn't really FORCED to shoot one-handed. 

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We discussed this extensively for Area 8 last year as staff and with Troy.

My opinion then and reinforced by Troy is that the stage procedure includes prop manipulation that forces someone to shoot one handed.

An example or 2 of legal-

Ammo can must be transported from start to finish.


An example or more of illegal—
Ammo can must be held or carried at all times except to clear jabs from start to finish and may not placed on the ground or other object except to clear jams.

A Rhodesian wall where one must hold the rope to see around the wall to be able to shoot the targets.

A port opening lever that must be held to keep a port open in order to engage targets only seen from that port.


In these examples of illegal presentation it is required by the stage procedure or means to shoot the stage to use a hand to hold, manipulate or do something OTHER than hold the PCC.



NOW—

IF you give them ability to shoot both hands , but don’t require them to shoot 1 handed — that is fully legal... IE— position A is a hard lean that would be better done by grabbing a wall and leaning out but that target or array is available from Position B without said lean... or that array COULD be shot there with both hands... that would be legal but somewhat questionable— if that makes the stage difficulty unreasonably difficult for different heights and sizes of competitors. (1.1.6)





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PCC isn't supposed to alter the way stages are built, if there are some parts of a stage that are harder for PCC, than a pistol shooter why is that a concern?

PCC already has an advantage in most cases, it is a rifle in a pistol match, in SHO and WHO they can use 2 hands, while pistol shooters can only use 1 hand, in uprange starts, they start facing downrange, in most cases they start with it in their hand, everyone else starts in a holster, there is no restriction on magazines, they have basically unlimited ammo.

It is the same stage for all PCC shooters, they all compete against each other in the division (so they say).

Having to carry a prop or manipulate a prop does not violate any rules I can see.

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Another pcc hater heard from. Keep a good stock of cheese to go with your whine.

 

But Sarge and others are right. We aren't shooting against pistol shooters so I don't give a hoot what you design for a stage as long as it is safe and actually doable with a rifle. Although most of all that carry around stuff, etc. sounds more like idpa to me.

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9 minutes ago, egd5 said:

Another pcc hater heard from. Keep a good stock of cheese to go with your whine.

 

But Sarge and others are right. We aren't shooting against pistol shooters so I don't give a hoot what you design for a stage as long as it is safe and actually doable with a rifle. Although most of all that carry around stuff, etc. sounds more like idpa to me.

 

I am 100% against circus crap but having to carry something seems practical and can force people to shoot one handed.  PCC would have to either complete the task or place the item on the ground engage targets and then pick it back up and move.  There has been a pussification of USPSA with regards to one handed shooting which you see in IPSC almost at every match.  Its a skill that I feel should be put to the test in a major USPSA match.  I like the prop manipulation idea better than "last 3 targets must be engaged SHO".  

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2 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Hmmm...

 

I remember some stage designs that were popular some years back that finished with a platform to shoot from, a large wall blocking the view to the targets (the wall was wider than the platform), and a rope somewhere around the middle of the wall. The shooter had to hold the rope in one hand and lean out fairly aggressively to engage the remaining targets. The shooter was compelled to shoot one-handed.

 

I guess that wouldn't be legal today under 1.1.5.4.  Too bad. It's actually a fun challenge.

We had this at one of our local matches. MD for awhile had a problem with a rifle @ a pistol match. Told MD it was unsafe & not legal. The way the MD got around it was to say that he was not requiring PCC shooters to shoot 1 handed. Shoot it 1 handed by your choice or just don't do it and take the penalties. 3 or 4 targets on each side. I have a fairly light PCC so I shot it 1 handed, but several others just took the penalties. 

 

By the way several pistol shooters including some very experienced ones got DQ'ed on the left hand 1 handed lean with AD's.  

 

gerritm

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I have no problem carrying something and either shooting with it while holding it or setting it down. But 1 handed PCC is not safe. And penalizing the PCC guys with no alternative to 1 handed is not right. Should always be a safe way to shoot the stage for all.

 

gerritm

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2 minutes ago, gerritm said:

I have no problem carrying something and either shooting with it while holding it or setting it down. But 1 handed PCC is not safe. And penalizing the PCC guys with no alternative to 1 handed is not right. Should always be a safe way to shoot the stage for all.

 

gerritm

I agree

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18 minutes ago, gerritm said:

But 1 handed PCC is not safe

I'm a hard disagree on this point,

 

 

unfortunately the rules are written from that point of view.

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If I were going to put a Rhodesian wall in a stage or a port with a leaver or pull rope, or whatever that required 1 handed shooting, and I had to accommodate PCCs I would just add a low port or 2 or 3 that required being prone as an alternative, easy to do, legal and most likely everyone would find out that one handing a PCC is not a big deal.

 

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25 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

If I were going to put a Rhodesian wall in a stage or a port with a leaver or pull rope, or whatever that required 1 handed shooting, and I had to accommodate PCCs I would just add a low port or 2 or 3 that required being prone as an alternative, easy to do, legal and most likely everyone would find out that one handing a PCC is not a big deal.

 

 

Thats a solid idea. 

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The reasoning that was explained to be about one handed is not everyone can safely fire one handed and by using a one size fits all Force them to do it- puts the liability on the match by requiring a potentially unsafe act..

Kinda like the same logic as every stage at the match should be GM level hard and the phrase “make a GM cry Difficulty”.

We should endeavor to make it for all heights and shapes and skill levels.
Forcing a prone position creates a problem for those that can’t get down....
I’ve had requests from competitors for a disability penalty for that issue at an area match....


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14 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

The reasoning that was explained to be about one handed is not everyone can safely fire one handed and by using a one size fits all Force them to do it- puts the liability on the match by requiring a potentially unsafe act..

Kinda like the same logic as every stage at the match should be GM level hard and the phrase “make a GM cry Difficulty”.

We should endeavor to make it for all heights and shapes and skill levels.
Forcing a prone position creates a problem for those that can’t get down....
I’ve had requests from competitors for a disability penalty for that issue at an area match....

There are a number of people who would probably say when I shoot weak-hand only with a pistol that it's not safe. Can you see if Troy will make WHO illegal with a pistol illegal too?

 

Regarding the penalty for prone...isn't that why that rule exists? Seems odd to say we shouldn't use prone because a few people can't do it.

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1 hour ago, gerritm said:

The way the MD got around it was to say that he was not requiring PCC shooters to shoot 1 handed. Shoot it 1 handed by your choice or just don't do it and take the penalties. 3 or 4 targets on each side.

He didn't get around it at all. He violated the rules. 

 

As others pointed out, there must be a proper alternative to one-handed PCC shooting. Whether some agree or not, it's how the rules are currently written. 

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2 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

The reasoning that was explained to be about one handed is not everyone can safely fire one handed and by using a one size fits all Force them to do it- puts the liability on the match by requiring a potentially unsafe act..

Kinda like the same logic as every stage at the match should be GM level hard and the phrase “make a GM cry Difficulty”.

We should endeavor to make it for all heights and shapes and skill levels.
Forcing a prone position creates a problem for those that can’t get down....
I’ve had requests from competitors for a disability penalty for that issue at an area match....

 

I understand the reasoning for the rule, I just don't agree with it. I don't think a request from a competitor for a alternative shooting position and associated disability penalty mean a stage is inherently flawed, it just means there is some amount of physicality on that stage and if well though out that is a good thing for the 99% that can and they should not be restricted because 1% cant. all that said I do my best to provide some alternative to any physical task that most anyone can do but they will most likely end up spending enough more time doing it that they will think twice about taking that option.

 

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Getting into a prone position has never been a problem for me. It's the getting back up that's fun to watch.

Seriously, a prone position in a stage isn't all that punitive if it's the last shooting position.

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1 hour ago, egd5 said:

We aren't shooting against pistol shooters so I don't give a hoot what you design for a stage as long as it is safe and actually doable with a rifle.

The "doable with a rifle" part is what puts constraints on stage design whether you give a hoot about shooting against pistol shooters or not.

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