Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[motosapiens]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:57 AM, Zincwarrior said:

Walther Q5 Steel and Sig X5 (and X5 Legion) have bet the answer to that is yes...

wait, wut? those aren't 1911's..... and they don't have single action triggers.

[happygunner77]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

wait, wut? those aren't 1911's..... and they don't have single action triggers.

 

Huh? You rack the slide and pull the trigger otherwise it's a dead trigger. 

[Eric802]

10 hours ago, happygunner77 said:

 

Huh? You rack the slide and pull the trigger otherwise it's a dead trigger. 

So now Glocks are single action? 

[happygunner77]

4 hours ago, Eric802 said:

So now Glocks are single action? 

What else would you call it when a trigger is only actuated by pulling the slide? Or it's just called SFA?

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by happygunner77

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, happygunner77 said:

What else would you call it when a trigger is only actuated by pulling the slide? Or it's just called SFA?

 

safe-action or striker-fired.

 

on a single-action gun you can just cock the hammer with your thumb.

[waktasz]

The q5 very much has a single action mechanism. Not sure about the sig. Glock does not as the trigger pull cocks the striker. 

[rowdyb]

single action=pulling the trigger does one thing.

double action=pulling the trigger does more than one thing.

 

whether the hammer is exposed or not, the above is the simplest determiner for your action type.

Edited December 26, 2019 by rowdyb

[PatJones]

single action=pulling the trigger does one thing.
double action=pulling the trigger does more than one thing.
 
whether the hammer is exposed or not, the above is the simplest determiner for your action type.

This.

Not all double action guns have re-strike capability after a light primer strike.

Some single action striker fired guns are approved for production.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[RIIID]

DA, restrike capability by just pulling the trigger.

SA, restrike only possible after manipulating slide to reset fire control system.

Production= DA-DA/SA-DA Like(meaning SA deemed legal by USPSA)

If Production was DA-DA/SA only the Production gun list would be very small, including DA Like guns opened up more brands which means more $. The only reason Production was created was to give potential new members a place to come play with currently owned guns(9mm) that weren't competitive in Open and Limited.

Rich 

 

[Zincwarrior]

On 12/24/2019 at 4:58 PM, motosapiens said:

wait, wut? those aren't 1911's..... and they don't have single action triggers.

Correct, but they answer the question. You don't need a 1911 to do that. They have the weight, and 1911 style triggers.

[Zincwarrior]

On 12/25/2019 at 7:08 AM, Eric802 said:

So now Glocks are single action? 

If they have a short reset trigger job with 3lb or less, you betcha. There are several "DAO" pistols that are SA in everything but name. AS WAK noted the Q5 is set up in that fashion,  the P320 X5/X5 Legion is set up in that fashion, and I think the XDMs may be the same. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Zincwarrior

[shred]

Used to be striker guns retracted the striker a little with the trigger pull (eg: Factory Glock), but more and more they don't, so the SA trigger pull on a factory CZ has more 'DA' action than the 'DA' pull on a Q5 does. 

 

This is why they should just institute a trigger pull rule and ignore the action type.  Save a ton of arguing and gun-changing as the next new hotness comes out, but the camps are way too entrenched for that.

 

[waktasz]

What arguing happens when a new gun comes out? Point me to one example.

 

There is a production list. If a gun comes out that they don't want to add to the list because of the perceived advantage of some magical trigger action, they won't add it. 

[shred]

3 hours ago, waktasz said:

What arguing happens when a new gun comes out? Point me to one example.

 

 

Laguo Alien. 

 

 

[waktasz]

IPSC is irrelevant to me.

[Thomas H]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:41 AM, motosapiens said:

I think you just like to argue.

 

please note I said 'non-existent for almost every COF'.

 

Yes, someone who just likes to argue can find a particular stage for which a DA first shot would be a very slight disadvantage. good job.

 

Yes, I saw that you changed what you were claiming.  Like I quoted earlier, you initially said:  "If you practice, a DA first shot means nothing, at least in my personal experience."

 

After that you talked about how you'd have to do extra practice to make it be the same.  And various other things.

 

Only later, when it was pointed out there were, indeed, stages in which a DA first shot (for example, many of our classifiers that include a first shot SHO or WHO) would make an obvious difference, you then changed it in various ways.

 

So....yes, we all know that with sufficient practice, DA is not too much worse than SA.  Which is not the same thing as "means nothing," and also includes said extra practice to get close to how SAs shots are.

 

Going back to the point of all that, not having to worry about that initial DA pull would mean all that "sufficient practice" could go elsewhere. 

 

Would that make a difference?  Dunno.  Rather depends on how much they were practicing in the first place.

 

It is certainly true that if people could shoot a 9mm 2011 in Production with mags loaded to 10 rounds, would that likely be the preferred gun over Glocks and such?  Yup, just like they are the preferred guns in Limited over Glocks and such. 

[happygunner77]

DA makes a difference. The only reason now for me it doesn't it's because like everyone said, dryfire or just for shooting it for the last 3 years. To those who don't dry fire or just have stock guns without trigger job will hesitate on that DA long shot. I know I did when I started with a DA/SA gun in 2016. I didn't dry fire until 2018 and from there, it made no difference to DA/SA anymore for long shots. 

[motosapiens]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:58 AM, Thomas H said:

 

Only later, when it was pointed out there were, indeed, stages in which a DA first shot (for example, many of our classifiers that include a first shot SHO or WHO) would make an obvious difference, you then changed it in various ways.

 

<snip>

 

It is certainly true that if people could shoot a 9mm 2011 in Production with mags loaded to 10 rounds, would that likely be the preferred gun over Glocks and such?  Yup, just like they are the preferred guns in Limited over Glocks and such. 

 

would it really make an "obvious difference". Admittedly, I'm only an M, but i shoot the same classifier HF's with my production cz's and with my 9mm 1911, even the SHO/WHO ones. And I think a reasonable person would admit that even if you don't want to practice, SHO and WHO, first shots may not be significantly more important than reliability, or reload speed (assuming no magwell or flush-carry-style magwell), both of which are areas I have found 9mm 1911's to be slightly inferior compared to modern guns with double-stack magazines.

 

I think many people would indeed choose to shoot 1911's, but I don't think they would have advantage. Heck you can already get a trigger as good as a good 1911 in most striker-fired guns, yet a guy with a DA gun keeps winning nationals and worlds, and yadda yadda yadda.

 

But wutever, apparently I like to argue and troll just as much as you do.   In reality, low-capacity divisions are going to die out in free states anyway, so everyone will be shooting Limited, CO, open and faggy long guns.

[shred]

I'm with Moto on this.  There's not a significant real difference, all things considered, but there's enough perceived difference that you could hear the howling all the way to the moon if the rules changed.