Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[cheby]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

wut? who the hell cares about open division hiders?

 

I foolishly thought we were talking about production, cuz that's the title of the thread....

LOL. I am guessing we stopped talking about Production even on this thread haha

[Dazhi]

I was shooting production and thought I liked/exceled at reloads until I tried CO last year.

Sold/milled all my prod guns for CO since then. Don't plan to go back until prod becomes 15 round.

The best part is, my left shoulder no longer hurts from dryfiring/reaching to that 4th or 5th mag reloads any more.

IMO 15 rounds won't drastically change prod. The same nats top 10 will still be top 10. If anything, 15 rounds bring USPSA closer to IPSC in a good way. CO was not popular when it was 10 round. Look at it now.

Sent from my LG-US998 using Tapatalk

[Thomas H]

On 12/16/2019 at 2:42 PM, motosapiens said:

wut? who the hell cares about open division hiders?

 

I foolishly thought we were talking about production, cuz that's the title of the thread....

 

And yet, the person I was replying to not only wasn't merely talking about Production division, but also wasn't merely talking about USPSA.

 

Which, you know, is why I clarified by saying at the start, "As such, we can take a look at Open guns..." and continued from there.

 

It made what you said a little silly.

 

Just as I said from the beginning, comments about how there isn't a difference between DA and SA are simply factually incorrect. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Just as I said from the beginning, comments about how there isn't a difference between DA and SA are simply factually incorrect. 

 

there appears to not be a *significant* difference in shootability between DA/SA and SA.

Edited December 18, 2019 by motosapiens

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

there appears to not be a *significant* difference in shootability between DA/SA and SA.

there appears to not be a *measurable* difference match scores between DA/SA and SA   

 

This is most likely because in a 441 round major match like last years Prod/SS Nationals where we can sort of directly compare the best shooters using each action type there were only  25 or so DA shots also mixed into that data are major scoring for every shot and 8 vs 10 round capacity advantages. 

 

What we can say is almost nobody chooses DA/SA over SA when they have the choice.

 

 

  

[cheby]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

 

What we can say is almost nobody chooses DA/SA over SA when they have the choice.

 

 

  

Fixed it for you

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

What we can say is almost nobody chooses DA/SA over SA when they have the choice.

  

 

Depends on your definitions. realistically, striker fired guns with good trigger jobs are no different than single-action guns, yet many people in CO and prod are quite satisfied with DA/SA instead, and they *seem* to do ok.

 

Of course if you could run a hammer-fired SA in those divisions, some people would choose to partly because it's less complicated and partly because it's one less thing to practice.

 

The question is, if you *could* run a 9mm 1911 with S&A-carry-style magwell in production, would you? Would the amazing and incredible advantages of the single-action trigger outweigh the  generally reduced reliability and skinnier reloads? 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

Depends on your definitions. realistically, striker fired guns with good trigger jobs are no different than single-action guns, yet many people in CO and prod are quite satisfied with DA/SA instead, and they *seem* to do ok.

 

Of course if you could run a hammer-fired SA in those divisions, some people would choose to partly because it's less complicated and partly because it's one less thing to practice.

 

The question is, if you *could* run a 9mm 1911 with S&A-carry-style magwell in production, would you? Would the amazing and incredible advantages of the single-action trigger outweigh the  generally reduced reliability and skinnier reloads? 

I would probably run My minor SS gun in production about as much as I run my GLOCKs or Tanfoglios, but I shoot a revolver so my opinions are generally put in question right from the get go.

I do believe you would see a reasonable number of people running 9mm single stacks in production if it were legal because they are a ton of fun to shoot and with a small magwell not very different to reload (with a little practice) but in the end the division will be dominated by whatever the current hotness is, unfortunately for the division seems have a new hot pistol every year or three. 

[mike4045]

51 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would probably run My minor SS gun in production about as much as I run my GLOCKs or Tanfoglios, but I shoot a revolver so my opinions are generally put in question right from the get go.

I do believe you would see a reasonable number of people running 9mm single stacks in production if it were legal because they are a ton of fun to shoot and with a small magwell not very different to reload (with a little practice) but in the end the division will be dominated by whatever the current hotness is, unfortunately for the division seems have a new hot pistol every year or three. 

I would go 40 minor with 10 rd mags and a magwell all day over my  17/34. Given the option of 40 major in same division, it would depend on the stages.

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, mike4045 said:

I would go 40 minor with 10 rd mags and a magwell all day over my  17/34. Given the option of 40 major in same division, it would depend on the stages.

I think most people would rather run a quality metal gun than a crappy plastic gun, but there are quality metal guns that are already legal for production. 

 

I personally would run a 9 mm 1911 in production, but that's because that's what I shoot when I'm not shooting limited, so I run it in whatever division it fits. Production would at least have some real heat.

Edited December 19, 2019 by motosapiens

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

there appears to not be a *measurable* difference match scores between DA/SA and SA   

 

This is most likely because in a 441 round major match like last years Prod/SS Nationals where we can sort of directly compare the best shooters using each action type there were only  25 or so DA shots also mixed into that data are major scoring for every shot and 8 vs 10 round capacity advantages. 

 

What we can say is almost nobody chooses DA/SA over SA when they have the choice.

 

 

  

 

Yup.

 

Like I said---people who say there is no difference will not, oddly enough, ever shoot a DAO version of their gun in competition, if available.  

Edited December 19, 2019 by Thomas H
typos. all the typos!

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Like I said---people who say there is no difference will not, oddly enough, ever shoot a DAO version of their gun in competition, if available.  

 

that's because there *is* a measurable difference between DAO and DA/SA or SA.

[MikeBurgess]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

that's because there *is* a measurable difference between DAO and DA/SA or SA.

agreed it is very small in the context of 1 shot per stage with a DA/SA gun but it adds up when they are all DA, I often get frustrated with myself when doing short (no reload) drills with my friends who are shooting open and limited and me shooting revolver, at my inability to shoot at the same pace with acceptable accuracy. 

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

agreed it is very small in the context of 1 shot per stage with a DA/SA gun but it adds up when they are all DA,

all the more so when you can be prepping that DA pull significantly before the sight picture is ready for actual shooting. When I tested it (shortly before making M) my draw to first shot was faster with my DA/SA gun out to about 7-8 yards, identical in the 10-15 yard range, and only a disadvantage at 20-25 yard.

 

I would say it's not just 'very small', it's non-existent for almost every COF.

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, motosapiens said:

all the more so when you can be prepping that DA pull significantly before the sight picture is ready for actual shooting. When I tested it (shortly before making M) my draw to first shot was faster with my DA/SA gun out to about 7-8 yards, identical in the 10-15 yard range, and only a disadvantage at 20-25 yard.

 

I would say it's not just 'very small', it's non-existent for almost every COF.

 

So, given a three-string standards stage (or a classifier) with freestyle, SHO, and WHO strings from the holster, a DA/SA has a non-existent difference compared to SA in terms of speed and accuracy?

Right, right.

 

You initially said:

"if you practice, a DA first shot means nothing, at least in my personal experience."

 

Hence my point about having to practice extra to make that happen, which rather literally contradicts what you were saying.

[motosapiens]

I think you just like to argue.

 

please note I said 'non-existent for almost every COF'.

 

Yes, someone who just likes to argue can find a particular stage for which a DA first shot would be a very slight disadvantage. good job.

[rowdyb]

15 rounds will not make production great again. I've shot 4 us ipsc nats matches in prod and having 15 rounds didn't make it in any measurable way more enjoyable for me versus uspsa prod.

 

(and i know it is unpopular and would cost many people a lot of money, but i'm the only person who seemingly would welcome a completely unified rule set.)

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

15 rounds will not make production great again. I've shot 4 us ipsc nats matches in prod and having 15 rounds didn't make it in any measurable way more enjoyable for me versus uspsa prod.

 

(and i know it is unpopular and would cost many people a lot of money, but i'm the only person who seemingly would welcome a completely unified rule set.)

 

I don't really see the point, there is one match a year in this country.  Why should we have to change to fit IPSC? They can just as easily change to fit us.

 

Some of their rules I like, some not so much.

[cheby]

The biggest problem with Production-15 is the states with the magazine restriction laws. Excluding those states from the sport does not help us, quite opposite.   

[shred]

4 hours ago, cheby said:

The biggest problem with Production-15 is the states with the magazine restriction laws. Excluding those states from the sport does not help us, quite opposite.   

Yeah, nobody in California shoots Open or Limited anymore.

 

oh, wait, there's tons of Open shooters there.

 

Why should states with stupid laws dictate to the rest of us what we should do?

 

[cheby]

Because we want promote our sport and the 2A. Especially if in those places.

[HI5-O]

19 hours ago, cheby said:

The biggest problem with Production-15 is the states with the magazine restriction laws. Excluding those states from the sport does not help us, quite opposite.   

 

14 hours ago, shred said:

Yeah, nobody in California shoots Open or Limited anymore.

 

oh, wait, there's tons of Open shooters there.

 

Why should states with stupid laws dictate to the rest of us what we should do?

 

 

11 hours ago, cheby said:

Because we want promote our sport and the 2A. Especially if in those places.

As someone who resides in a restricted state, it’s our USPSA competitors who promote the sport. I haven’t seen anyone here yet that didn’t get into USPSA matches because the law here restricts mag capacity. Wish it wasn’t the law but we have adapted. Shooters are resourceful and a bunch here regularly compete in free states in unrestricted capacity divisions. Promoting the 2A is everyone’s job.

 

One of the guys I shoot with regularly, said he won’t shoot a major match in Limited 10 like he did when he started out. He’ll do Limited but not L-10. I haven’t heard of anyone else from here trying to get into the L-10 Nationals, I wouldn’t. I rather spend my money on shooting in Open division, and I’ve been given advice not to drop my mags after 10 shots, all in fun. At home I have been pushing to not offer Limited 10 as a division in our local matches and having only Limited division. The new rules take into account of the jurisdictions laws anyway. 
 

I shoot Production on occasion and I wouldn’t care if the mag capacity stayed at 10 or changed to 15, wouldn’t affect us locally anyway. And as I said earlier, shooters are resourceful and will adapt.

 

So, thanks for looking out for those of us living in restricted states, appreciate the support. 
 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:50 PM, shred said:

Yeah, nobody in California shoots Open or Limited anymore.

 

oh, wait, there's tons of Open shooters there.

 

Why should states with stupid laws dictate to the rest of us what we should do?

 

 

 I could see keeping things consistent state to state being handy for a lot of folks like me who sort of live in a try state area and shoot matches across state lines every month. Changing anything to match the way they do things in France or wherever seems like it would not be useful to near as many people. 

[jhgtyre]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 I could see keeping things consistent state to state being handy for a lot of folks like me who sort of live in a try state area and shoot matches across state lines every month. Changing anything to match the way they do things in France or wherever seems like it would not be useful to near as many people. 

The problem is that since the state regs change sometimes you have to change too regardless of what USPSA rules state..  To me it seems like a misguided effort to try to comply with the rules of restrictive states.

[Zincwarrior]

On 12/18/2019 at 3:47 PM, motosapiens said:

 

 

 

The question is, if you *could* run a 9mm 1911 with S&A-carry-style magwell in production, would you? Would the amazing and incredible advantages of the single-action trigger outweigh the  generally reduced reliability and skinnier reloads? 

Walther Q5 Steel and Sig X5 (and X5 Legion) have bet the answer to that is yes...