Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[BadShot]

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

If its a discussion about why CO is taking off at the cost of other divisions I think the answer is this

Open= super fast super cool, BUT finicky, expensive guns that need special ammo 

Limited= pretty fast pretty cool, BUT sort of finicky expensive guns that need special ammo and iron sights are hard

Production= not as fast not as cool, Iron sights are hard, minor scoring But affordable reliable guns and whatever ammo

CO= almost as fast as open, affordable, reliable guns, whatever ammo, optics are easier BUT minor scoring 

 

When you break it down CO really is the most bang for your buck 

 

 

Good post.  The  only thing I would add is that the carry optics red dot scopes are still a weak spot.

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, BadShot said:

Good post.  The  only thing I would add is that the carry optics red dot scopes are still a weak spot.

Sort of, they can be a problem for the high volume shooters at the top but for 75% of the competitors and nearly 100% of the public they are great.

[waktasz]

I don't know about that. 

Everyone I know that has shot CO for more than a month has broken a dot already. 

[TrackCage]

Just now, waktasz said:

I don't know about that. 

Everyone I know that has shot CO for more than a month has broken a dot already. 

At the risk of jinxing myself, this isn't true. I've shot a minimum of 5k rounds over six months and have not broken my dot. I realize it's not a ton of ammo among this group, but even the highest of volume shooters rarely fire that amount in a month (or several). 

 

That, and anyone serious about CO that travels to Major matches has a backup - same as every other division. I only have one CO gun because I'm not deep into the division yet. If I fully jump from Production then a second CO gun is on my (late) Christmas list.

[waktasz]

I don't know you

 

All I said was everyone "I" know has gone through dots already. My first one lasted 400 rounds. Yes it was a Vortex for which that is common, but for a newbie starting out in CO, it made sense, and I'm sure many others are thinking the same. I have an SRO now with not a ton of rounds on it but it should be better

 

[BadShot]

I broke 2 DPP red dots and 2 RTS2 red dots in about 3000 rounds on my CZ SP01.  Both manufacturers backed them up and my DPP has another 1200 with no further issues.

[cheby]

I went through 4 DPPs in 4 months a couple of years ago and decided to go to Limited instead for a while after that. The technology is getting better rapidly though. I will get back to CO eventually.   

[TrackCage]

28 minutes ago, cheby said:

The technology is getting better rapidly though.

 

This, I believe, we can all agree on.

 

I will freely admit that if my gun started eating dots, the enjoyment I'm currently getting from the division would quick become a lot less fun.

[Agent #1911]

here is an idea.....

 

limit CO to 10 rounds like what it should have been instead of turning it into a poor man's open division. 

[GJM]

You must not shoot CO! 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, GJM said:

You must not shoot CO! 

 

That is my reaction to the folks that want to go high limits on production.

 

A lot of the fun is the challenge, stage planning, hitting slick reloads, making the shots count, completely different game if you make production the same as limited minor.

[jhgtyre]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That is my reaction to the folks that want to go high limits on production.

 

A lot of the fun is the challenge, stage planning, hitting slick reloads, making the shots count, completely different game if you make production the same as limited minor.

 

I think this varies quite a bit from shooter to shooter.  I shoot revolver and when the division opened up to allow 8 shot guns there were guys that shot 6 shooters who said they loved the challenge of breaking down the stage and planning their reloads to make 6 shots work.  There were others, myself included, that wanted to shoot more and reload less (basically).  I don't think one point of view is necessarily better but I wouldn't call one group the "real" revolver shooters either.  To bring it back around to production I've got a Shadow 2, an awesome production gun, but whenever I can I put the 23 round mags in and shoot limited minor with it.  Different strokes.

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, jhgtyre said:

 

I think this varies quite a bit from shooter to shooter.  I shoot revolver and when the division opened up to allow 8 shot guns there were guys that shot 6 shooters who said they lived the challenge of breaking down the stage and planning their reloads to make 6 shots work.  There were others, myself included, that wanted to shoot more and reload less (basically).  I don't think one point of view is necessarily better but I wouldn't call one group the "real" revolver shooters either.  To bring it back around to production I've got a Shadow 2, an awesome production gun, but whenever I can I put the 23 round mags in and shoot limited minor with it.  Different strokes.

 

Isn't that "always"?  I mean, other than various Nats, I can't think of any regular match that doesn't allow Limited in it.  So isn't this more of a "I like Limited better than Production, enough to even not care about shooting Minor" comment?

 

One of the things that sets Production apart from most the rest of the semi-auto divisions is the low-capacity requirement where everyone shoots minor, which makes for a different type of stage plan and execution.  Changing that (as has been said numerous times) turned it into a very different division.

 

On a separate note:  Several people have now said variations on "XXX is killing Production" and "Production is dropping a lot" and "Production is dying" and so on.  And yet....while the numbers themselves are indeed going down a bit, Production isn't dying at all.  Not at a major match level, nor on a club level.  Sure, there are regional variations, but overall, tons of people are still shooting Production.  Yes, some dilution has occurred---this should have been expected, since we added two more divisions (PCC and CO), both of which tend to be shot by people in 9mm with minor scoring.  As such, we'd expect that Production would (comparatively speaking) lose more of a percentage of shooters than any other division.

 

None of that changes the fact that Production is still an incredibly popular division.  I have yet to see any suggested change that would actually increase the participation in it.  Is there a suggestion I missed that would make any substantive difference in making people want to shoot Production more?

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

 Is there a suggestion I missed that would make any substantive difference in making people want to shoot Production more?

 

I have one. allow 9mm 1911's, with small magwells (don't extend past standard grips). they are certainly no advantage over a shadow, or tanfo, or a glock or canik if Nils is shooting it.

[Eric802]

36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I have one. allow 9mm 1911's, with small magwells (don't extend past standard grips). they are certainly no advantage over a shadow, or tanfo, or a glock or canik if Nils is shooting it.

So could I shoot my Hi-Power in Production, then?  Or is there a way to distinguish a 9mm 1911 from other single-action 9's?

[shred]

Slap on a trigger pull requirement for SA guns and let them into PD and CO.  Make it a little higher than whatever tuned striker guns are getting these days...

 

Production's so-called "decline" is because there's now other viable options for entry level shooters that want to tear around and blast targets, without caring a lot about footwork and precision reloads and stage planning and whatnot while still shooting cheap factory ammo.

[waktasz]

So two pounds? 

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

  I have yet to see any suggested change that would actually increase the participation in it.  Is there a suggestion I missed that would make any substantive difference in making people want to shoot Production more?

 

I think this is the crux of all the, " we could do "x" to fix production" posts.  Every suggestion that one person likes, another hates, for a net gain of zero or so it seems

[shred]

22 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I think this is the crux of all the, " we could do "x" to fix production" posts.  Every suggestion that one person likes, another hates, for a net gain of zero or so it seems

Wander over to the 3-Gun forums and read the threads about why 3-Gun is declining.  The answer they don't want to hear is 'shotgun'-- maybe for good reason that it wouldn't be the 3-gun they know and love with those changes, but it seems the same thing is true of Production and the 10 round limit.

 

[motosapiens]

43 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

So could I shoot my Hi-Power in Production, then?  Or is there a way to distinguish a 9mm 1911 from other single-action 9's?

that would be even better, lol. i was hoping someone would take the bait.

[RJH]

Just now, shred said:

Wander on over to the 3-Gun forums and read the threads about why 3-Gun is declining.  The answer they don't want to hear is 'shotgun'-- maybe for good reason that it wouldn't be the 3-gun they know and love with those changes, but IMO the 10 round limit is the elephant in the room for Production too.

 

 

I have posted on that thread too, and do believe that SG is part of the problem with 3 gun attendance, but i think bad stage design is more of an issue, however there is already a different thread on that   

 

But when you look at this thread there are several posters, who i assume shoot production, that want the limit left at 10.   The "fix" of allowing 8 shot revolvers seemed to do more harm than good, but with revolver being so small it is hard to know.  But, there has not been an influx of new revolver shooters since the rule change.  

 

I don't currently shoot production, but do have  a production gun, so i might again in the future.  None of the ideas in this thread would keep me from shooting production, and if production was kept exactly how it is now i would still shoot it.  There are plenty of divisions in USPSA and i tend to find the one i like at the time and shoot it, and if i am not in the mood for that, i just pick a division that more closely aligns with what i am wanting to shoot that day.  Over time i have come to see these "lets fix "x" division" threads as pointless.  If you want to shoot a certain way/gun there is probably already a division/organization that has that style of shooting.  

 

 

[belus]

 

51 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I have one. allow 9mm 1911's, with small magwells (don't extend past standard grips). they are certainly no advantage over a shadow, or tanfo, or a glock or canik if Nils is shooting it.

So could I shoot my Hi-Power in Production, then?  Or is there a way to distinguish a 9mm 1911 from other single-action 9's?

I'm not looking to change Production at all. It's my favorite and primary division and I don't think it needs fixing. It's still highly popular even here in Texas where nobody has limited capacity mags.

 

But I wouldn't fight a merger of Production and Single Stack, including the 8M/10m capacity restriction. The so-called Lo-Cap division allowing magwells on SS guns and the +1/8" on double stack guns.

 

Regarding other SAO pistols like the HP but more so the P226X5, or 2011's, part of me would want to exclude them to limit the arms race factor. But it seems that ship has sailed with the CZ A01 and Laugo Arms's Alien being approved in IPSC.

Edited November 26, 2019 by belus
forgot a word

[cheby]

3 minutes ago, belus said:

 

. But it seems that ship has sailed with the CZ A01 and Laugo Arms's Alien being approved in IPSC.

L10 Minor indeed....

[TrackCage]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I have one. allow 9mm 1911's, with small magwells (don't extend past standard grips). they are certainly no advantage over a shadow, or tanfo, or a glock or canik if Nils is shooting it.

 

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that would be even better, lol. i was hoping someone would take the bait.

 

If you allow SAO guns into Prod, you have to also let DA/SA guns run cocked and locked, instead of hammer down. While this may seem like a minor change (DA is only one shot of a 32 round course), it changes the current Prod game alot, IMO. 

 

So, allow 9mm 1911's and other SAO guns, but make them run hammer down to start (kidding).

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

 

 

If you allow SAO guns into Prod, you have to also let DA/SA guns run cocked and locked, instead of hammer down. While this may seem like a minor change (DA is only one shot of a 32 round course), it changes the current Prod game alot, IMO. 

 

i don't think it changes the game at all. if you practice, a DA first shot means nothing, at least in my personal experience

I'm not a GM yet, but I shoot exactly the same times and scores whether I'm using a 9mm 1911 in SS or a cz 75b in production, and my lightly modded cz has a much more ordinary trigger than the latest shadows.