Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[Eric802]

56 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that would be even better, lol. i was hoping someone would take the bait.

I guess I'm too new to this to get it.  

[TrackCage]

34 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i don't think it changes the game at all. if you practice, a DA first shot means nothing, at least in my personal experience

I'm not a GM yet, but I shoot exactly the same times and scores whether I'm using a 9mm 1911 in SS or a cz 75b in production, and my lightly modded cz has a much more ordinary trigger than the latest shadows.

OK, and *thumb rest [generic]* take down levers don't make a difference either, if you have proper grip. But given the rules landscape these days, you can't see it going this way? 

[motosapiens]

Just now, TrackCage said:

OK, and *thumb rest [generic]* take down levers don't make a difference either, if you have proper grip. But given the rules landscape these days, you can't see it going this way? 

 

I think people who don't practice will probably spend to get whatever the hive says is the current hotness. People who practice will continue to stomp them into the ground with the same guns they've been using.

[Thomas H]

50 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i don't think it changes the game at all. if you practice, a DA first shot means nothing, at least in my personal experience

 

This type of comment always seems interesting to me, because it seems to be so self-evidently not true.

 

If there isn't a difference between DA and SA, then people should be doing just as well with DAO pistols as they are with SA pistols.  But they don't, because DA is more difficult, and nobody shoots that way if they have a choice.  Not impossibly so, and with practice you can minimize the difference.  Which doesn't change the fact that a similar amount of practice with an SA trigger would result in a better outcome.

 

Since it is only for one shot, in general, with practice, you can make the DA first shot almost the equal of an SA first shot, so given the current usefulness of having SA shots the rest of the time, many people will go for that choice.  It isn't because DA "means nothing," it is because you can practice enough to make the negatives of one shot of it worth less than the positives of the rest of the SA shots. 

 

But it requires extra practice specifically on that first DA shot for that to be true.  As such, it WILL make a difference to the vast majority of people in USPSA (who are in the B-to-C range).

 

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

This type of comment always seems interesting to me, because it seems to be so self-evidently not true.

 

If there isn't a difference between DA and SA, then people should be doing just as well with DAO pistols as they are with SA pistols. 

 

 

having *all* DA shots would imho make a significant difference, whereas having 1 DA shot imho does not. Your argument is valid from a mathematical standpoint that it must make *some* kind of difference, but it appears to me to be insignificant.

 

I personally experimented with cocked/locked vs DA first shot in steel challenge for a few weeks before I concluded that I couldn't measure a difference, so I just kept starting with the hammer down to mimic what I was doing in USPSA. In other words, I shot DA first shot, even tho I had a choice, because it didn't appear to be a disadvantage. it may have even been an advantage on stages with an easier first target. Then I switched from the cz to a 1911 (with no change in times).

 

Admittedly I'm only an A in Steel challenge Limited, so perhaps a better shooter would be able to measure more of a difference

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by motosapiens

[belus]

2 hours ago, TrackCage said:

If you allow SAO guns into Prod, you have to also let DA/SA guns run cocked and locked, instead of hammer down. While this may seem like a minor change (DA is only one shot of a 32 round course), it changes the current Prod game alot, IMO. 

I agree it'd change the Prod game, but I don't think it'd be that significant. Battle in the Bluegrass is a SS/Production match and the top-5, top-10, and top-20 were all pretty fairly represented by each division (80 SS registrants to 110 Production registrants): https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

 

I don't think Production needs the merger or any other changes. But I wouldn't complain or grumble if the SS guys started shooting their guns in my favorite division. On the occasion I shoot SS instead I'd actually prefer to be lumped in with the larger Production field.

[cheby]

I think we are missing the point here. Yes, there are two new divisions that reduced participation in Production. (BTW, dilution of the competition  was one of the arguments against  some of the new divisions). Also the gear race (Even though it is not that important but that is beyond the point) distracted many people away from the division. We can discuss all day that is stupid and it does not matter  but the question of the OP remains - what to do (If anything) to attract people back to shoot minor ammo with iron sights. Production needs to find (Or redefine)  its niche in my opinion.    

[TrackCage]

11 minutes ago, belus said:

I agree it'd change the Prod game, but I don't think it'd be that significant. Battle in the Bluegrass is a SS/Production match and the top-5, top-10, and top-20 were all pretty fairly represented by each division (80 SS registrants to 110 Production registrants): https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

 

I don't think Production needs the merger or any other changes. But I wouldn't complain or grumble if the SS guys started shooting their guns in my favorite division. On the occasion I shoot SS instead I'd actually prefer to be lumped in with the larger Production field.

My point is just about unintended consequences.

 

SS merges with Prod: Now I should be able to use my DA/SA gun in SAO? Oh, and bull barrels should be allowed in SS right, because they are allowed in Prod? And prod does not have an overall weight restriction, just +4 oz, so my SS gun now can be a +50 oz pig? I'm just saying that although this is purely a hypothetical, there is more to it than first blush.

 

P.S., I don't even shoot a DA/SA gun in Prod (striker).

[IHAVEGAS]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:12 AM, jhgtyre said:

I shoot revolver and when the division opened up to allow 8 shot guns there were guys that shot 6 shooters who said they loved the challenge of breaking down the stage and planning their reloads to make 6 shots work.  There were others, myself included, that wanted to shoot more and reload less (basically).  I don't think one point of view is necessarily better but I wouldn't call one group the "real" revolver shooters either. 

 

I hate it that the rule change made 6 shot revolvers completely non competitive. It is a fun game to play at and it was fun to have one or two good 6 shot people on your squad. 

 

With the advent of computer based scoring we could make major/minor competitive with wheel guns as well as open and limited. We won't, but I think it would be fun. 

[mike4045]

On 11/26/2019 at 12:12 PM, shred said:

Slap on a trigger pull requirement for SA guns and let them into PD and CO.  Make it a little higher than whatever tuned striker guns are getting these days...

 

Production's so-called "decline" is because there's now other viable options for entry level shooters that want to tear around and blast targets, without caring a lot about footwork and precision reloads and stage planning and whatnot while still shooting cheap factory ammo.

I am good with 5 pounds across the board.

 

[C-Money]

Having shot some IPSC matches I actually prefer the IPSC Production rules for mods and holsters but not for the 15-round capacity. I like 10 round mags and the stage planning/reloading challenges.

Locally most mediocre shooters and noobs tend to want to shoot with an optic and high capacity mags. I get why - it's easier. Production is restrictive and difficult. Why bother with it when you can spend more money and make matches easier? Adding five rounds to Production isn't going to make irons any easier to shoot, and there is a big difference between 15 round and 21+ round magazines for large round count stages. There isn't as much between 10 and 15 due to the 8-shot view rule for stage design. Frequently you would need to reload the same amount of times in a stage with either 10 or 15 round magazines. The larger magazine capacity has a greater effect in IPSC than it would in USPSA due to the course length requirements which result in fewer 32 round field courses.

 

The allowance of mods in Production was a sop to sponsors and "stakeholders" just as much as it was an admission that rules enforcement is hard. No manufacturer who is a premier sponsor of Nationals gives a crap about 15 round Production so its chances of happening are near zero.

[Joe4d]

On 11/26/2019 at 3:34 PM, Thomas H said:

 

This type of comment always seems interesting to me, because it seems to be so self-evidently not true.

 

If there isn't a difference between DA and SA, then people should be doing just as well with DAO pistols as they are with SA pistols.  But they don't, because DA is more difficult, and nobody shoots that way if they have a choice.  Not impossibly so, and with practice you can minimize the difference.  Which doesn't change the fact that a similar amount of practice with an SA trigger would result in a better outcome.

 

Since it is only for one shot, in general, with practice, you can make the DA first shot almost the equal of an SA first shot, so given the current usefulness of having SA shots the rest of the time, many people will go for that choice.  It isn't because DA "means nothing," it is because you can practice enough to make the negatives of one shot of it worth less than the positives of the rest of the SA shots. 

 

But it requires extra practice specifically on that first DA shot for that to be true.  As such, it WILL make a difference to the vast majority of people in USPSA (who are in the B-to-C range).

 

It may seem to be untrue,,, but it isnt,,
IDPA ESP vs SSP scores show it doesnt matter,, for that matter L10, SS, and production scores show it doesnt matter.
Also stryker fired guns being allowed in DA divisions make the whole DA, SA argument just straight irrational. 
The irrational fear of Single action guns is just that... irrational. 
I say get rid of SS and production, create Limited 10/8

[waktasz]

Thankfully no one is asking what you'd say. 

[broadside72]

Adding five rounds to Production isn't going to make irons any easier to shoot, and there is a big difference between 15 round and 21+ round magazines for large round count stages. There isn't as much between 10 and 15 due to the 8-shot view rule for stage design. Frequently you would need to reload the same amount of times in a stage with either 10 or 15 round magazines. The larger magazine capacity has a greater effect in IPSC than it would in USPSA due to the course length requirements which result in fewer 32 round field courses.

One of the best reasons to not change a thing

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[PatJones]

Let me fix that for you...

It may seem to be untrue,,, but it isnt,,
IDPA ESP vs SSP scores show IDPA doesnt matter...

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Joe4d]

guess a couple of you guys need to crawl back into your safe places.
My point is the fear of SA is irrational. Striker guns win Limited,  SS minor and production scores flip flop with no clear advantage, IDPA even figured that out already that SSP and ESP scores were about the same.
If that challenges your view of the world I am very sorry, I cant help you

Edited December 12, 2019 by Joe4d

[Thomas H]

15 hours ago, Joe4d said:

guess a couple of you guys need to crawl back into your safe places.
My point is the fear of SA is irrational. Striker guns win Limited,  SS minor and production scores flip flop with no clear advantage, IDPA even figured that out already that SSP and ESP scores were about the same.
If that challenges your view of the world I am very sorry, I cant help you

 

Making up random emotional commentary to use to disparage other people isn't actually an argument, it is someone getting upset with their own hallucinations that they've projected upon someone else..

 

Moving onward to actual facts:

 

One of the things we know quite well is that at upper levels of the sport, people will take every single advantage they can get, no matter how small.  As such, we can take a look at Open guns, in which you COULD shoot a DA/SA, but no one does.  You COULD shoot a Glock, but almost no one does (and none that do, succeed, and get away from it as soon as they can get out of the sponsor obligation).  If you take a look at Limited, we DON'T see DA/SA guns.  We might see striker-fired, but in those cases, the vast majority have trigger work done so that they most certainly aren't stock, and are much more close to being SA triggers in movement, feel, and weight.

 

Joe4d said:  "IDPA ESP vs SSP scores show it doesnt matter,, for that matter L10, SS, and production scores show it doesnt matter."

 

Hm.  I'd say pretty clearly that they show it does matter, actually.  Yes, scores are similar in those divisions....except at high levels, whereupon they aren't, except for a few outliers.  Using Vogel as an argument for a particular gun is ridiculous.  That's like using Miculek in Steel Challenge to "prove" that revolvers are just as easy to shoot as SA guns.  That's the person, not the gun.

 

I'll note that nothing you said actually refutes the "DA does take more practice than SA" comment I made when I mentioned that if things WERE equal, then people would be shooting DAOs.  At least SHOOTING them, if not winning or "being equal."

But they aren't, and it isn't.

[Joe4d]

I have no issue discussing the topic with those that disagree, heck thats what forums are for, how boring it would be if we all agreed. 

Far as the topic I disagree and I think you are missing the causative link.
Far as open, thats a different beast trying to get 9mm major to run, get max capacity, and be durable favors the existing SA platforms. Nothing to do with trigger type, its the available platforms.
Also typical SA is steel, strikers are plastic, again, IMO the advantage is the weight and durability not the trigger. The fact that one of the most popular production platforms ( CZ/EAA design) arguably uses even a worse trigger than a striker gun in order to gain the weight advantage.
Ive looked at a handful of Area matches on Practiscore listing combined results, you just dont see a clear breakout between trigger types in the 10 round divisions.
IMO the rise of the striker guns made the separation of SA and DA pointless.
We also now have steel, and heavy frame striker guns coming from Walther and Sig, further closing any perceived gap.
A  L10 division, with a reasonable box and weight rule, keep the mods in check , would create a division with lots of competitive platforms. Some better than others, but none because of trigger.
I dont get the rational from anyone who has shot a Walther, that says that trigger is fine and dandy,,, but "OMG !, OMG! the sky would fall if we had to shoot against a 1911 because of the trigger.
I just started shooting again this year after about a 8 year break, and picked up a XDM,  I dont feel like I would do any better whatsoever running a SS minor gun that I shot for years. 

[TrackCage]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

I have no issue discussing the topic with those that disagree, heck thats what forums are for, how boring it would be if we all agreed. 

Far as the topic I disagree and I think you are missing the causative link.
Far as open, thats a different beast trying to get 9mm major to run, get max capacity, and be durable favors the existing SA platforms. Nothing to do with trigger type, its the available platforms.
Also typical SA is steel, strikers are plastic, again, IMO the advantage is the weight and durability not the trigger. The fact that one of the most popular production platforms ( CZ/EAA design) arguably uses even a worse trigger than a striker gun in order to gain the weight advantage.
Ive looked at a handful of Area matches on Practiscore listing combined results, you just dont see a clear breakout between trigger types in the 10 round divisions.
IMO the rise of the striker guns made the separation of SA and DA pointless.
We also now have steel, and heavy frame striker guns coming from Walther and Sig, further closing any perceived gap.
A  L10 division, with a reasonable box and weight rule, keep the mods in check , would create a division with lots of competitive platforms. Some better than others, but none because of trigger.
I dont get the rational from anyone who has shot a Walther, that says that trigger is fine and dandy,,, but "OMG !, OMG! the sky would fall if we had to shoot against a 1911 because of the trigger.
I just started shooting again this year after about a 8 year break, and picked up a XDM,  I dont feel like I would do any better whatsoever running a SS minor gun that I shot for years. 

 

Calling CZ/Tanfo triggers worse than striker guns certainly is an 'arguable' point at best. I don't know many who feel that way - even those like myself that went from a Tanfo back to a striker gun. 

 

XD... that explains a lot   

[waktasz]

yep, Joe should have left that part out. Now all of his opinions are totally invalidated due to mental illness. 

 

[Zincwarrior]

2 hours ago, TrackCage said:

 

Calling CZ/Tanfo triggers worse than striker guns certainly is an 'arguable' point at best. I don't know many who feel that way - even those like myself that went from a Tanfo back to a striker gun. 

 

XD... that explains a lot   

Apologies but to be clear, what are you arguing for? Elimination of Production and just having Limited 10?

This is not a criticism but a question.

[TrackCage]

30 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Apologies but to be clear, what are you arguing for? Elimination of Production and just having Limited 10?

This is not a criticism but a question.

My comment was made in refute to someone who is advocating change to Production division - based on spending eight years away from shooting sports.

 

I think the division is fine as-is, and frankly one that is very popular in my neck of the woods (in part, possibly due to mag restrictions).

[motosapiens]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:47 AM, Thomas H said:

 

You COULD shoot a Glock, but almost no one does (and none that do, succeed, and get away from it as soon as they can get out of the sponsor obligation).

 

shane coley and bob vogel seem to do ok with glocks. Bob even claims to prefer them over 2011's.

 

Of course people will generally choose to use fancier, more precise, more expensive equipment, but that doesn't mean it actually works significantly better in a match environment. People do a lot of dumb and irrational stuff, just look at their cars, 401k balances, waistlines, etc....

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

shane coley and bob vogel seem to do ok with glocks. Bob even claims to prefer them over 2011's.

 

Of course people will generally choose to use fancier, more precise, more expensive equipment, but that doesn't mean it actually works significantly better in a match environment. People do a lot of dumb and irrational stuff, just look at their cars, 401k balances, waistlines, etc....

 

Ignoring the part where I was talking about Open division made what you said a little silly. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

49 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Ignoring the part where I was talking about Open division made what you said a little silly. 

 

 

wut? who the hell cares about open division hiders?

 

I foolishly thought we were talking about production, cuz that's the title of the thread....