Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

I argued for this in the beginning.  I also argued that CO should be able to have a laser or light attached, as all those seem to go together on guns outside competition. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Agent #1911 said:

All of a sudden we care about “other people’s participation” in the division when in reality, its “I”, the complainer’s participation. leave production alone and shoot in LTD minor. Why restrict yourself with 15 rounds?. Its kind of like asking “can we please add the Q in LGBT so I can fit in?”.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they've already added the Q and several other letters to that.

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm pretty sure they've already added the Q and several other letters to that.

They sure have. PCC and CO come to mind.

[Tanders]

3 hours ago, Agent #1911 said:

All of a sudden we care about “other people’s participation” in the division when in reality, its “I”, the complainer’s participation. leave production alone and shoot in LTD minor. Why restrict yourself with 15 rounds?. Its kind of like asking “can we please add the Q in LGBT so I can fit in?”.

 

 

Did you bother to read the original post?  I'll go over the key point to save you the trouble of scrolling back to read it:  I don't give a crap about the capacity restriction; make it 10, make it 15, make it 8... doesn't matter to me.  However, since there are currently no other iron sight divisions where you can be competitive shooting minor and Production has been drying up a bit recently, 15-round Production seems like a pretty cool idea since it would probably help draw people back into the division.  The "shoot Limited minor" mantra I keep hearing is kind of dumb since everyone knows that isn't competitive if you're competing against someone of equal skill who is shooting major.  Now that you're up to speed, I'll let you get back to calling people snowflakes on the internet.

[Tanders]

3 hours ago, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

I really like this idea and I was thinking about doing exactly that until I found out about the dot requirement.

[cheby]

19 minutes ago, Sarge said:

They sure have. PCC and CO come to mind.

LOL

[Intheshaw1]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:06 PM, Tanders said:

I really like this idea and I was thinking about doing exactly that until I found out about the dot requirement.

Same here.

 

Too bad they don't just run production and a P10 like they do in limited. Don't punish the whole country for the stupidity of a few States.

[Dutycalls75]

In the beginning when CO was a provisional division having an optic wasn’t a requirement to shoot CO, but that was also when it was still mag capacity limited to 10 and had a weight limit. I’m pretty sure though that some production GM came into a major match and won CO with his production gun and then afterward HQ added the addition rule that you had to have an optic. (I was told that they thought it violated the spirit of the rules and they were worried it would cause problems down the road if not corrected.)

[rowdyb]

I'd only support 15 rounds in Prod if the other rules were exactly the same as ipsc prod rules.

[Mcfoto]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

I'd only support 15 rounds in Prod if the other rules were exactly the same as ipsc prod rules.

 

Which would make for many unhappy G34 and XDm Competition owners.

[rowdyb]

6 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

would make for many unhappy

yep, it totally would. but that's what it would take for me to support the round count change.

[ATMester]

On 9/19/2019 at 10:13 AM, robchavous said:

If they do anything they'll go to something like a 125mm mag limit, which I believe Foley has voiced support for.

 

 

Where did you get this information?

[mike4045]

Just go with the full IPSC production rules and be done with it.

[Eric802]

On 10/1/2019 at 10:14 AM, shred said:

We should just remove the mandatory dot requirement in CO.  It's silly and then there's a nice handy load-em-up all-Minor division right there.

 

Might as well eliminate CO altogether, allow dots in Production, and remove the capacity restriction.  Merge the all-Minor divisions.  

 

I'm a new shooter but I'd say leave it be.  If someone wants to get into the sport without a huge outlay of money, they have options - shoot Production with some cheap mag holders (I'm using the dual-mag holder that came with an XD9 and two USGI pouches), or shoot Limited minor and carry fewer mags.  If you have a gun with an optic, shoot CO.  If you don't want to be at a disadvantage shooting minor, stick in Production or CO.  If you stick with it and want to get competitive, you can stay in the minor-only divisions with what you've got or move up to Limited or Open and shoot major.  Speaking only for myself, I'm fine with changing mags - it's a skill to learn.  I can see myself sticking with Production for the foreseeable future and maybe getting into CO at some point, but as someone who has reached the point where I don't feel like adding another caliber I'm not going to get into shooting major.  And with two minor-only divisions to play in, I don't need to.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Eric802

[Jim Watson]

As a minor sidelight, what is the timeline for the formation of the various divisions?

[waktasz]

On 9/25/2019 at 7:25 PM, RJH said:

How to fix production: 

1 only guns currently on the production list,  others could be added though 

 

2 springs and sights are the only allowed mods, otherwise must be out of the box

 

3 fill factory grip length mags to factory capacity 

 

4. 9 minor 45 major

 

5 revolvers allowed with any mods they want and any caliber for major, and no more revolver division

 

Production perfection 

 

You trying to fix it or kill it?

[waktasz]

On 10/3/2019 at 9:46 PM, Dutycalls75 said:

In the beginning when CO was a provisional division having an optic wasn’t a requirement to shoot CO, but that was also when it was still mag capacity limited to 10 and had a weight limit. I’m pretty sure though that some production GM came into a major match and won CO with his production gun and then afterward HQ added the addition rule that you had to have an optic. (I was told that they thought it violated the spirit of the rules and they were worried it would cause problems down the road if not corrected.)

 

The thought was to stay an extra day after Production Nats at PASA park and shoot CO nats. It was only a one day match and there wasn't very much heat. They quickly changed the rules to prevent that so it never actually happened that some GM Prod guy was able to win a big match with no dot.

[cheby]

10rd limit is not what is killing production. The 47 Oz, $2K Limited 10Minor guns are. If you want to shoot iron sights now, Limited is the better option.   

[waktasz]

I don't believe that at all. The p320s are pretty darn popular and not terribly expensive, and even the most expensive Production guns aren't $2k, unless you're an idiot. 

[cheby]

The p320 is good and yes, my math was a little off but...   my whole point is a lot of  production guns have nothing to do with "Carry" or  "Duty" guns anymore. The whole idea of shooting those guns in competition was appealing to a lot of folks (For  wrong reasons, IMHO but nevertheless...)   

[Eric802]

6 minutes ago, cheby said:

The p320 is good and yes, my math was a little off but...   my whole point is a lot of  production guns have nothing to do with "Carry" or  "Duty" guns anymore. The whole idea of shooting those guns in competition was appealing to a lot of folks (For  wrong reasons, IMHO but nevertheless...)   

I suppose the USPSA could stop putting guns like the Shadow 2 on the Production list.  If it's being "produced" just to game the Production rules, is it really a Production gun?

[waktasz]

Yes

[cheby]

1 minute ago, Eric802 said:

I suppose the USPSA could stop putting guns like the Shadow 2 on the Production list.  If it's being "produced" just to game the Production rules, is it really a Production gun?

Yep, but it is too late now

[RJH]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

You trying to fix it or kill it?

 

 

Which part don't you like the most?

 

Also do you like the way production is going where you can do more mods, or would you like a more stock gun?

 

And for the record, i don't care about production, but if my rules were implemented i might shoot it

[waktasz]

Every single part of what you said except #1 is terrible.