Military 9mm ammo almost makes Major ?

[HCH]

23 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

We don't.  We limit mag length.  If you want to shoot a fat cartridge, you give up capacity.  Same with my Open guns.  The 9mm holds three more cartridges than the 40 in both 140 and 170 mags.

 

I think that is the exact definition of “handicap” and “penalize”

 

What is the difference in an arbitrary magazine length vs an arbitrary number of rounds in a mag? How does an RO know a competitor isn’t squeaking an extra round in with a 144mm mag?

 

It is all arbitrary, and basically mandates one caliber per division (ok two, .357 sig/40 for Limited, 9/38 for open, but you get the point). 

 

As for bumping PF, most of us are shooting under or right at a starting charge...

Edited April 30, 2019 by HCH

[DKorn]

9 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

What is the difference in an arbitrary magazine length vs an arbitrary number of rounds in a mag? How does an RO know a competitor isn’t squeaking an extra round in with a 144mm mag?

 

Because at a large match, they might check mags at Chrono? And technically at any point an RO could pull out a gauge and check, but is unlikely to bother at a local. 

[HCH]

5 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Because at a large match, they might check mags at Chrono? And technically at any point an RO could pull out a gauge and check, but is unlikely to bother at a local. 

 

So in other words, cheaters are going to cheat, no matter what?

[lstange]

24 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I agree .357 Sig is silly in Limited.  But it is under SAAMI limits for the cartridge.

.356 TSW was also under SAAMI limits.

[superdude]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Because Open guns have comps and/or poppels to redirect the gasses, and most doesn't exit the front.  That saves the slide, and keeps the frame from getting battered.  I know that is the case, because I run 7 lb recoil springs in two of my Open guns, and 8 lb springs in the other two.

 

My Limited load is 3.7gr e3 under a 180.  My 9mm major load is 10.3gr Major Pistol under a 115.  Fire that in a 19/2011 with no comp or poppels and you would need a 20 lb recoil spring, and I'm not sure that would save the slide.

 

Also, every cartridge eligible for Limited major makes major withing SAAMI pressures.  You can't say the same for 9mm major unless you load way long and use a case full of very slow powder.  Even then you are above SAAMI limits.  Plus you are talking about massive recoil.

 

The recoil of 9 Major or 38 Super at Major power factor does not fit the category of massive recoil. 

 

Here's some numbers, all based on a 2 lb gun:

 

45 ACP, 230 grain @ 850 fps, 8.2 grains of HS-6 (one of the highest charge weights to reach that speed in the Hornady Load manual).  Recoil = 6.73 ft lbs. 

 

9 Major 115 grain @ 1518 fps, 10.0 grains of A#7 (my 5" gun) 175 power factor. Recoil = 6.18 ft lbs.

 

This 9 Major load produces less recoil force than a 45 Auto at normal speed. 

 

As far as pressure is concerned, we're already loading 9 Major above SAAMI specs (for most powders) anyway. The only thing that differs between an Open gun and a Limited gun is the compensator. Why does it matter if the gun has a compensator or not?  It's still the same chamber pressure. 

 

 

 

[zzt]

19 minutes ago, superdude said:

Why does it matter if the gun has a compensator or not?  It's still the same chamber pressure.

 

Because the comp redirects gas.  9 major out of a non-ported, non-comped gun is going to go blazing out the front of the barrel at velocities greater than your 45 load.  That will drive the slide back faster and cause more wear/damage.

[superdude]

7 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Because the comp redirects gas.  9 major out of a non-ported, non-comped gun is going to go blazing out the front of the barrel at velocities greater than your 45 load.  That will drive the slide back faster and cause more wear/damage.

 

Sure, but it's not as bad as you make it sound. Besides, we know how to spring guns to compensate for that. Hammer springs, recoil springs, square firing pin stop. 

[zzt]

Right.  So now the muzzle is pointing up at a 45 degree or better angle under recoil, and when the slide closes the sights will dip.  Exactly the things I want for fast splits.

[superdude]

Don't get carried away.  It would simply be like shooting a 45 with factory ammo. 

 

Besides, everyone else shooting in the same class would be experiencing the same thing.  If 45 Auto-like recoil in Limited division is too much for you, that's fine. No one will force you to shoot in that division.

 

We're getting pretty far off topic. If you want to continue, feel free to open another thread. 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by superdude

[hamiltonian]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You’ll never see Major 9 in Limited because they won’t risk angering every single competitor currently shooting in the most popular division.

 

The end.

 

Well said, MemphisMechanic; I think this is the real reason.  Every limited shooter would have to get a new 9mm top end put on their guns to stay competitive.  However, it would reduce ammo costs and simplify reloading chores.

Edited May 1, 2019 by hamiltonian

[DocMedic]

Back on topic. I just received my LOT for the year. I'm not sure where the 1300 FPS talk is coming from but the M882 Ball is shooting just shy of 1150 out of my Beretta M9. I weighed a couple of the bullets too. they are closer to 112-113g not 115s

Edited May 1, 2019 by DocMedic

[mlmiller1]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:23 PM, hamiltonian said:

And why are we still forbidden to shoot 9mm major in Limited Division????

There is a huge pressure difference between 152pf & minimum 165 but more likely 168pf ammo.  Thats why.  Thats another 100fps at least & as anyone who has ever reloaded knows pressure growth to velocity is not linear but is curved.  

 BTW feel free to load major ammo & shoot it in a 9mm limited gun.  You are not forbidden, just wont get major scoring.  Give it a try just see if you like it.  Lol

Edited May 5, 2019 by mlmiller1

[Jeff226]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:23 PM, hamiltonian said:

And why are we still forbidden to shoot 9mm major in Limited Division????

Fudds love their .40

[Jeff226]

On 4/30/2019 at 12:03 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

That sounds dumb.

 

So I'll have to bump my load up from 170-172 to 185 or so. Harder on me, harder on my gun, more money in components. Oh and I get to down load all my mags to 18, the RO will have  to keep track to make sure I didn't load 19 so he can bump me to open. All that and it would still be dumb to shoot minor.

180 pf is factory 40 cal.  Agreed, it is definitely dumb to shoot minor as long as it is stuck in a division giving a scoring advantage to 40.

[Jeff226]

On 4/30/2019 at 10:15 PM, hamiltonian said:

Well said, MemphisMechanic; I think this is the real reason.  Every limited shooter would have to get a new 9mm top end put on their guns to stay competitive.  However, it would reduce ammo costs and simplify reloading chores.

Nobody is required to do anything if they just split Limited major and minor into two competitive divisions.  That is the easy fix and makes way too much sense because there are a ton of untapped participants that don't want to be bothered with reloading powder puff .40s or buying a gun for a dying caliber.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Jeff226

[Jeff226]

On 4/30/2019 at 3:57 PM, zzt said:

 

Because the comp redirects gas.  9 major out of a non-ported, non-comped gun is going to go blazing out the front of the barrel at velocities greater than your 45 load.  That will drive the slide back faster and cause more wear/damage.

 

You can shoot .40, 357 sig, and 9mm all out of the same Glock models, none of them have compensators.  How is 165pf 9mm more destructive than 185pf .40 factory loads?  How is the velocity of a 165 pf 9mm more blazing than the same 165 pf from 357 sig using the same exact bullet?

 

I shoot 9mm major out of my stock Glock 17 all the time.  Doesn't feel all that much different than 40 or 357 especially when I put the stiffer .40 cal recoil spring in.

[Racinready300ex]

On 5/17/2019 at 8:28 PM, Jeff226 said:

Nobody is required to do anything if they just split Limited major and minor into two competitive divisions.  That is the easy fix and makes way too much sense because there are a ton of untapped participants that don't want to be bothered with reloading powder puff .40s or buying a gun for a dying caliber.

 

It's a good plan, take one of the biggest most popular divisions and split it into two smaller ones. But, no there aren't a ton of "untapped participants" holding out because there isn't a limited minor division. Shoot Prod, PCC, CO, SS, or Revolver if you want to shoot minor. Hell shoot Limited minor if you're only shooting level-1's anyway it wont really matter that much. If someone wants to be serious about limited they'll get the right gear, just like any other division. Otherwise don't worry about changing things so much. Find the division you like and shoot it.

 

Oh, and there is already a place for Limited minor, it's called IDPA-ESP. Boom, problem solved.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 8:33 PM, Jeff226 said:

 

You can shoot .40, 357 sig, and 9mm all out of the same Glock models, none of them have compensators.  How is 165pf 9mm more destructive than 185pf .40 factory loads?  How is the velocity of a 165 pf 9mm more blazing than the same 165 pf from 357 sig using the same exact bullet?

 

I shoot 9mm major out of my stock Glock 17 all the time.  Doesn't feel all that much different than 40 or 357 especially when I put the stiffer .40 cal recoil spring in.

 

Case capacity.

[Hi-Power Jack]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:46 PM, DocMedic said:

  I'm not sure where the 1300 FPS talk is coming from but the M882 Ball is shooting just shy of 1150 out of my Beretta M9. 

 

American Rifleman mag from May 2019.

 

May not be M882 Ball - might be a special loading or something new ???

[Jeff226]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's a good plan, take one of the biggest most popular divisions and split it into two smaller ones. But, no there aren't a ton of "untapped participants" holding out because there isn't a limited minor division. Shoot Prod, PCC, CO, SS, or Revolver if you want to shoot minor. Hell shoot Limited minor if you're only shooting level-1's anyway it wont really matter that much. If someone wants to be serious about limited they'll get the right gear, just like any other division. Otherwise don't worry about changing things so much. Find the division you like and shoot it.

 

Oh, and there is already a place for Limited minor, it's called IDPA-ESP. Boom, problem solved.

 

 

Case capacity.

 

It will still be the biggest most popular divison, even bigger, but it will be limited minor.  This is something best left to big picture people so save your same old tired suggestions.  Either USPSA is going to adapt or someone else (possibly IDPA with more rules changes) will accommodate and kill the USPSA...fine with me either way.  It is dumb to have your largest division with the broadest possible market appeal forcing people to reload a dying cartridge to have the "right gear."  

 

Velocity is velocity.  165pf velocity from 9mm is not "blazingly" faster than 357 sig using the same bullet regardless of case capacity.

 

 

[zzt]

USPSA isn't going anywhere, and neither is the 40sw.  In my area Production is the largest Division, followed by Limited and then Open.  This year, CO is overtaking Open.  Limited is about 60% major and 40% minor.  I know a lot of the L minor shooters and have never heard a complaint there should be a Limited Minor Division.

[TrackCage]

34 minutes ago, zzt said:

USPSA isn't going anywhere, and neither is the 40sw.  In my area Production is the largest Division, followed by Limited and then Open.  This year, CO is overtaking Open.  Limited is about 60% major and 40% minor.  I know a lot of the L minor shooters and have never heard a complaint there should be a Limited Minor Division.

That's because people that actually shoot a division don't complain about it. 

 

It's those that "would" shoot a division if the rules would better cater to them.

 

I do personally think the 40cal min bullet diameter of limited is a little outdated, but I don't really care because that's not my sandbox.

[Jeff226]

21 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

That's because people that actually shoot a division don't complain about it. 

Nonsense.  You'll notice all of the relaxed rules in production on grip stippling, finger groove removal, and trigger swaps...because people complained and they were dumb rules.  These are just a few of the many obvious examples of changes based on "feedback."

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jeff226
spellcheck

[zzt]

25 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

I do personally think the 40cal min bullet diameter of limited is a little outdated, but I don't really care because that's not my sandbox.

 

There is an exception for .357 Sig, because it will make major with factory ammo under SAAMI pressure.   That is not the case with 9mm major.  At 170PF you are way over SAAMI, so I can see why USPSA will not allow it.  Only idiots shoot 9mm major in uncomped plastic guns and expect them to last.  Geez, one friend converted his M&P 5" to Open with Carter Custom stuff.   1 1/2 seasons later he is on his third set of rails.  He has 2000 more rounds loaded up.  When he uses them up he is going back to CO so he can shoot minor.

 

BTW, no one has to reload powder puff 40 if they don't want to.   I can drive over to my local store and buy quality reman major and minor 40sw.

Edited May 20, 2019 by zzt

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

It will still be the biggest most popular divison, even bigger, but it will be limited minor.  This is something best left to big picture people so save your same old tired suggestions.  Either USPSA is going to adapt or someone else (possibly IDPA with more rules changes) will accommodate and kill the USPSA...fine with me either way.  It is dumb to have your largest division with the broadest possible market appeal forcing people to reload a dying cartridge to have the "right gear."  

 

Velocity is velocity.  165pf velocity from 9mm is not "blazingly" faster than 357 sig using the same bullet regardless of case capacity.

 

 

 

Clearly you don't load 9 major, but are willing to talk like you know things.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Racinready300ex

[dansedgli]

We have to use 357 sig for major here. Most people neck down 40 cases and use 160-180 grain bullets.  

 

Take that saami. 

 

I also shot 38 super major in my trojan quite often. It felt fine to me.  Good flames.