Banners and See-Thru Walls at Area 6

[DKorn]

4 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Would cutting lines/holes be an issue?

 

I'd think they could make them with wind relief cuts in them. I'm pretty sure I've seen them in banners. 

 

Depends on who owns the banners, I would think. If they’re loaned by a sponsor to the match and no representative of the sponsor is on site, would you cut holes in a banner you don’t own?

[B_RAD]

Just now, DKorn said:

 

Depends on who owns the banners, I would think. If they’re loaned by a sponsor to the match and no representative of the sponsor is on site, would you cut holes in a banner you don’t own?

Makes sense. 

 

Obviously, we want sponsros and we want to represent them or have thier banners in a spot that helps promote their business. 

 

I'm just asking questions.  

 

It'd be great if they could have thier banners made with wind relief holes/cuts. I know that may be more money and doesn't solve the issue for ones already made. 

 

Again, just asking questions. 

 

 

 

 

[DKorn]

15 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Makes sense. 

 

Obviously, we want sponsros and we want to represent them or have thier banners in a spot that helps promote their business. 

 

I'm just asking questions.  

 

It'd be great if they could have thier banners made with wind relief holes/cuts. I know that may be more money and doesn't solve the issue for ones already made. 

 

Again, just asking questions. 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. Or a banner with some kind of built in stand that can be staked down somewhere outside the shooting area near the stage. 

[Gary Stevens]

The question has been asked a couple of times with no answer, what would you do? 

 

Fair question, deserves an answer.

[MikeBurgess]

43 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I would say that banners being out up are part of the course since it affects the view of course.  Section 1.2.1 of uspsa rules spell out location and view for course design. The appendix spells out what a view is. If putting up a banner the next day changes that view, then the course has been modified. The appendix also defines “significant advantage” as having a greater view or targets which a banner could affect. It doesn’t matter if you’re 6’4” and can can see over the height of a banner. And it doesn’t matter if Troy said it wasn’t an issue or change course. At any match, if the stage is changed, ALL competitors should be notified of the stage changes and given the opportunity to arb it or not per the rules. 

 

I’ve also seen where banners affected max traps by blocking or deflecting the wind. Something to think about when putting up a banner. 

 

I believe the problem lies with the fact that a snow fence wall is while not directly defined as such is considered a vision barrier in regards to creating a "view" (defined) within a course of fire. the fact that it may be easy to look through it does nothing from a rules perspective to change how it is treated. 

[HoMiE]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I believe the problem lies with the fact that a snow fence wall is while not directly defined as such is considered a vision barrier in regards to creating a "view" (defined) within a course of fire. the fact that it may be easy to look through it does nothing from a rules perspective to change how it is treated. 

Maybe the snow fence is not defined as a view, but once you attach a banner to such a wall it’s becomes a vision barrier. And once that vision barrier was changed as part of the course, the competitors should be notified. Given that the change was made in the last day during the final hours and maybe the weather conditions were worse don’t negate the fact the the stage was different for some competitors. Notify all competitors and then if it’s a big enough difference someone can challenge results and arb for the stage to be thrown out of match officials felt compelled to keep stage. You can do this at any time with a 3rd party arb. 

 

 

[shred]

As a stage and match sponsor, getting my banner into pictures is far, far down the list from having a good match that shooters enjoy.

 

 

[HCH]

Jeez... I’ve shot plenty of 3 gun matches where one evening I was shooting 500 yards at dusk, unable to see a target through a scope, and the next day I was staring straight into the sun through a rifle scope. I’ve shot USPSA across 4 days when some guys shot in 110 degree heat, and others shot while it was 80°, muddy as hell and muggy. 

 

Major changes in range conditions can happen within 24 hours in my area. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it. 

[hello0o0o0o]

Shot sunday and the banners coming down i felt only translated to a minute difference in the stages, however it definitely allowed a decent amount of previously visually obstructed targets to be visible.  

Honestly though, the biggest disparity I felt was the weak handed stage 10.  Apparently people were confused with the wording on whether or not it had to be 3 engaged targets weak hand or just finishing with 6 shots on a single target with weak hand.  People the first day seemed to be told it needs to be scored hits and not scored shots... it caused people to shoot the stages in a very certain way so I feel like that was definitely a competitive advantage.

[theWacoKid]

The funny thing is I can argue the banners coming down and opening up the snow fence is a disadvantage. The ability to view through a snow fence and find a port has tripped me up more than I care to admit. 

[Thomas H]

Seems to me that it is pretty clear that on a stage with snow-fence-type walls, putting up banners will make a difference (and depending on where they were placed, a significant difference) in the view(s) available to the competitor.

 

If you are shooting a target that cannot be engaged until you reach the end of a wall or a port, and you can see that target prior to reaching the end of the wall/port, then it is easier to set up and be ready to shoot the target once it is available.  How much easier depends on the shooter's capabilities, and where the target is relative to the shooter.  But no matter what, it will be easier.  Good shooters will say that the gun should be up and ready to shoot (and thus on target) as the target becomes available (not after).  It is easier to do so if the target itself can be seen prior to that time.  Sure, you can use index points on stage props and so on also (and most people do, if they can't see the target) but again, it is easier if you can actually see the target.

 

For stage setup, my personal preference is that banners and such are only placed on solid walls, or are separate from the stage props and out of the way of the shooting section of the stage. 

 

Regarding the change in banners from day to day----that's a tough one.  I think it would make a difference, and if nothing else, should be communicated to the competitors.  Whether or not a particular stage should have been thrown out due to that.....that I don't know, because I don't know the stages in question nor the placement of the banners on that stage.

 

But I think it is a good conversation to have, and something good match staff might think about when putting up sponsor banners.  If you keep them on solid walls only, or have them outside the stage area, it won't be a problem.

[Ssanders224]

On 4/21/2019 at 4:02 PM, theWacoKid said:

The funny thing is I can argue the banners coming down and opening up the snow fence is a disadvantage. The ability to view through a snow fence and find a port has tripped me up more than I care to admit. 

 

Valid.