Banners and See-Thru Walls at Area 6

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

Banners are banners, not installed as vision barriers.

 

You weren't even there, why are you so concerned about something that didn't affect you.

 

I saw the stages, all of them,  a lot since I photographed it all 4 days, no one got an advantage because banners came down,  I shot Thursday and don't think it hurt me at all with banners being up.

 

Contact Troy since he was there if you don't like what happened at a match you didn't shoot.

 

Banners are vision barriers, unless they are clear, why they are installed doesn't change the affect they have on a stage.  

 

I am only concerned because a person posted in the rules section of the forum,  was then told that vision barriers (regardless of why they were installed) had no effect on stage difficulty or equity, which is pretty much verifiably  false. 

 

Why does it bother you that i want the rules to apply equally to all competitors and match officials?

 

 

Why is your answer always call Troy?  I can read and have a pretty good hold on the English language, i don't need a cryptographer to make out the rule book

[RJH]

27 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Sigh. Again, keep it polite or it will be closed....

 

Noted, and will do.  Sorry

[bret]

Just now, RJH said:

 

Banners are vision barriers, unless they are clear, why they are installed doesn't change the affect they have on a stage.  

 

I am only concerned because a person posted in the rules section of the forum,  was then told that vision barriers (regardless of why they were installed) had no effect on stage difficulty or equity, which is pretty much verifiably  false. 

 

Why does it bother you that i want the rules to apply equally to all competitors and match officials?

 

 

Why is your answer always call Troy?  I can read and have a pretty good hold on the English language, i don't need a cryptographer to make out the rule book

Because Troy was there, you were not, he can tell you if it changed the stages.

 

From what I saw, it was not a change on a stage per the rules.

 

If barrels or walls were moved or removed that would be a change on a stage.

[RJH]

The OP (who apparently was there and shot the match)  felt is was a change in competitive equity.  I will take his word that it did since he had no stake in the match as an official.  

 

The OP also stated that you then had a clear view of some targets that were previously obscured,  and wanted to know about rules concerning this.  

 

Most objective people would say that removing vision barriers would change the stage.  Even if it was determined that the stages should be left in the match, the competitors should have been notified, as per the rulebook

 

 

[bret]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

The OP (who apparently was there and shot the match)  felt is was a change in competitive equity.  I will take his word that it did since he had no stake in the match as an official.  

 

The OP also stated that you then had a clear view of some targets that were previously obscured,  and wanted to know about rules concerning this.  

 

Most objective people would say that removing vision barriers would change the stage.  Even if it was determined that the stages should be left in the match, the competitors should have been notified, as per the rulebook

 

 

I shot on Thursday. all banners were up, I was not at a disadvantage by shooting with all banners up.

 

I won't try to blame banners for how I shot because they made a absolutely no difference. 

 

It was not a change in the stages, no reason to notify competitors.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, bret said:

I shot on Thursday. all banners were up, I was not at a disadvantage by shooting with all banners up.

 

I won't try to blame banners for how I shot because they made a absolutely no difference. 

 

It was not a change in the stages, no reason to notify competitors.

 

The OP seems to disagree

 

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

 

  Making walls you can't see through into walls you can seem to fit nicely into this, and then requires this:

 

 

2.3.2 All competitors must be notified of any such changes as soon as possible. At a minimum, they must be notified by the official in charge of the course of fire during the squad briefing.

 

 

Remember, i am not saying toss the stage.  RMs really hate to toss stages and i get that, but the notification should have been made.  Once again, the banners may not have been intended as vision barriers, but unless you are superman or they were clear, there is no logical case that can be made that they weren't vision barriers.  By removing them, the physical (here is the definition of physical: relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete) construction of the course was changed.

 

So there you go, by the rulebook and the English language the competitors should have been notified.

 

 

[bret]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The OP seems to disagree

 

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

 

  Making walls you can't see through into walls you can seem to fit nicely into this, and then requires this:

 

 

2.3.2 All competitors must be notified of any such changes as soon as possible. At a minimum, they must be notified by the official in charge of the course of fire during the squad briefing.

 

 

Remember, i am not saying toss the stage.  RMs really hate to toss stages and i get that, but the notification should have been made.  Once again, the banners may not have been intended as vision barriers, but unless you are superman or they were clear, there is no logical case that can be made that they weren't vision barriers.  By removing them, the physical (here is the definition of physical: relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete) construction of the course was changed.

 

So there you go, by the rulebook and the English language the competitors should have been notified.

 

 

I disagree that it was a change that warranted invocation of 2.3.2

 

But I will play your game.

 

Since I shot Thursday what would happen if I was notified?

 

are they going to give me reshoots on all of the affected stages?

 

If so, what about the people that after shooting. Do they have to come reshoot the stages?

 

If they refuse to reshoot is that a 0 for the stages? 

 

Ido not feel I was at a competitive disadvantage because the OP had less banners up than i did.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

I disagree that it was a change that warranted invocation of 2.3.2

 

But I will play your game.

 

Since I shot Thursday what would happen if I was notified?

 

are they going to give me reshoots on all of the affected stages?

 

If so, what about the people that after shooting. Do they have to come reshoot the stages?

 

If they refuse to reshoot is that a 0 for the stages? 

 

Ido not feel I was at a competitive disadvantage because the OP had less banners up than i did.

 

You can dissagree all you want,  but the rule book says otherwise. I don't know why you don't want to follow it.

 

 

As for the rest of your questions i think they are probably mostly answered in the 2.3 section of the rule book as well. Go ahead and read up on them and i am sure you will find the answer you like, or make up one if you don't.....

 

 

[B_RAD]

21 minutes ago, bret said:

I shot on Thursday. all banners were up, I was not at a disadvantage by shooting with all banners up.

 

I won't try to blame banners for how I shot because they made a absolutely no difference. 

 

It was not a change in the stages, no reason to notify competitors.

Your feelings and my feelings aren't the point. I say that, because I feel differently. Not to say that it helped or hurt my performance (at another match that had the same issue), but I don't feel the stages were the same for everyone. That should be the goal. For things that are under the control of the the staff, the match should be the same for everyone. 

 

Having something up on the walls that obscures targets when some people shoot and then not having it up when others shoot, is not the same situation/stage.

 

Also, That's something that's within the control of the match staff. It's not an uncontrollable situation like weather. 

 

 

I'm hesitant to give a for instance because everything is so situational dependent on many variables. But,..... I know sometimes you may position yourself in a specific spot based on visual feedback you get from seeing the targets or props thru a snow fence as you're moving into that spot. If the next day there's a banner that blocks those same items from view as you're moving into that same spot, then you wouldn't be able to do that like you could if there was no visual obstruction. Like maybe a shooter was able to do the day before. We all know how important positioning yourself is.  To me that's huge. But if the banners are up the entire time, everyone has the same fields of view from the same positions.

 

Again, given the option, nobody would choose to have banners up. If you think you can use a specific spot to index on for coming around one, imagine indexing on the actual spot on the target. Which is more advantageous?  

 

To me, it's something that is so simple and it shouldn't be a discussion. Once the first shot gets fired nothing inside the shooting area that isn't an exact copy  (targets/walls) should change at all!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bret]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

You can dissagree all you want,  but the rule book says otherwise. I don't know why you don't want to follow it.

 

 

As for the rest of your questions i think they are probably mostly answered in the 2.3 section of the rule book as well. Go ahead and read up on them and i am sure you will find the answer you like, or make up one if you don't.....

 

 

Rule book does not, you are trying to twist the rules to fit your narrative. 

 

DNROI was there,  he must not have thought removing banners was a change in the stages.

 

Not sure why you are concerned about a match you didn't shoot. 

 

If you were the RM, what would you have done?

 

 

[B_RAD]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

Rule book does not, you are trying to twist the rules to fit your narrative. 

 

DNROI was there,  he must not have thought removing banners was a change in the stages.

 

Not sure why you are concerned about a match you didn't shoot. 

 

If you were the RM, what would you have done?

 

 

Yeah, well I've seen reshoots given to someone who shoot steel until it fell. So, just cause someone specific is at a match doesn't always mean the rules are followed. 

 

 

[RJH]

Just now, bret said:

Rule book does not, you are trying to twist the rules to fit your narrative. 

 

DNROI was there,  he must not have thought removing banners was a change in the stages.

 

Not sure why you are concerned about a match you didn't shoot. 

 

If you were the RM, what would you have done?

 

 

Yes, the rulebook says exactly that. I actually showed yu the rules,  and a dictionary definition of the word physical.  

 

I cannot, however, with logic, a rulebook, and a dictionary fight against your "feelings", it just don't work.

 

It doesn't suprise me that DNROI doesn't always follow the rulebook, he has set that precedent, but i don't get to vote on DNROI

 

As a USPSA member,  why shouldn't i be concerned if rules were not followed at a major match, especially if DNROI was there. Sounds like something to be concerned about to me.

 

And lastly i would have followed the rulebook,  otherwise why have it

[RJH]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

Yeah, well I've seen reshoots given to someone who shoot steel until it fell. So, just cause someone specific is at a match doesn't always mean the rules are followed. 

 

 

 

I have seen that too. I have also seen fault lines interpreted differently from one day to the next....

[bret]

25 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Your feelings and my feelings aren't the point. I say that, because I feel differently. Not to say that it helped or hurt my performance (at another match that had the same issue), but I don't feel the stages were the same for everyone. That should be the goal. For things that are under the control of the the staff, the match should be the same for everyone. 

 

Having something up on the walls that obscures targets when some people shoot and then not having it up when others shoot, is not the same situation/stage.

 

Also, That's something that's within the control of the match staff. It's not an uncontrollable situation like weather. 

 

 

I'm hesitant to give a for instance because everything is so situational dependent on many variables. But,..... I know sometimes you may position yourself in a specific spot based on visual feedback you get from seeing the targets or props thru a snow fence as you're moving into that spot. If the next day there's a banner that blocks those same items from view as you're moving into that same spot, then you wouldn't be able to do that like you could if there was no visual obstruction. Like maybe a shooter was able to do the day before. We all know how important positioning yourself is.  To me that's huge. But if the banners are up the entire time, everyone has the same fields of view from the same positions.

 

Again, given the option, nobody would choose to have banners up. If you think you can use a specific spot to index on for coming around one, imagine indexing on the actual spot on the target. Which is more advantageous?  

 

To me, it's something that is so simple and it shouldn't be a discussion. Once the first shot gets fired nothing inside the shooting area that isn't an exact copy  (targets/walls) should change at all!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Banners were removed due to weather, that is outside the control of staff.

 

Banners are not part of the stage design, so the presence or absence of them does not change the stage.

 

On stage 6 a no shoot inadvertently got taken down,  they had to toss the stage, that's because the stage changed, not because banners had to be removed. 

[bret]

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

Yes, the rulebook says exactly that. I actually showed yu the rules,  and a dictionary definition of the word physical.  

 

I cannot, however, with logic, a rulebook, and a dictionary fight against your "feelings", it just don't work.

 

It doesn't suprise me that DNROI doesn't always follow the rulebook, he has set that precedent, but i don't get to vote on DNROI

 

As a USPSA member,  why shouldn't i be concerned if rules were not followed at a major match, especially if DNROI was there. Sounds like something to be concerned about to me.

 

And lastly i would have followed the rulebook,  otherwise why have it

Not my feelings. 

 

I expect the rules to be followed, all of them.

 

Tell me what you would have done if you were RM, tell me specifically what needed to be done to comply with your feelings of what the rules say.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, bret said:

Not my feelings. 

 

I expect the rules to be followed, all of them.

 

Tell me what you would have done if you were RM, tell me specifically what needed to be done to comply with your feelings of what the rules say.

 

Yes, your feelings.

 

Read the rules, the competitors should have been notified that the vision barrier aka banners had been removed because of inclement weather as per 2.3.2/2.3.3.  Then if i felt there was no competitive inequity i would have allowed the course of fire to continue as per 2.3.3.1.  If i there was a competitive disparity i would have tossed the effected stages per 2.3.4.  

 

There you go, rules and English followed. Now please do us  a favor and go away

 

 

[DKorn]

I have a couple questions.

 

How many stages were affected?

 

Was this a case of banners being damaged or blowing off, and/or banners being taken off when they were imminently going to cause other issues, like walls blowing over? Or, were a few blowing off and then someone made the decision to pull all the banners?

[B_RAD]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

Banners were removed due to weather, that is outside the control of staff.

 

Banners are not part of the stage design, so the presence or absence of them does not change the stage.

 

On stage 6 a no shoot inadvertently got taken down,  they had to toss the stage, that's because the stage changed, not because banners had to be removed. 

I get it that some don't think it's a big deal. In the grand scheme, it probably isn't. However, I really think my point about using the visual data available being different does change the stage. 

 

That's just my opinion. 

 

 

 

Don't put banners up on walls. There will never be another issue.  

 

Hang them up on something else in the bay but outside the shooting area. 

 

I know, that's one more thing for staff to do, but no one could have any issue with it. This is so easy to never have another issue with!

 

Again, the goal is to have everything the same for every shooter. I know having the banners not being there from start to finish will never create an issue!  You can't say the same about removing them half way thru. 

 

 

 

 

[ChuckS]

done

[ChuckS]

We're back. I am opening this thread since this is a real match management issue and should be discussed. I have had to deal with this both as a competitor and match official and I am curious as to what people think. Don't let it get personal...

 

Thanks,

Chuck

 

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I get it that some don't think it's a big deal. In the grand scheme, it probably isn't. However, I really think my point about using the visual data available being different does change the stage. 

 

That's just my opinion. 

 

 

 

Don't put banners up on walls. There will never be another issue.  

 

Hang them up on something else in the bay but outside the shooting area. 

 

I know, that's one more thing for staff to do, but no one could have any issue with it. This is so easy to never have another issue with!

 

Again, the goal is to have everything the same for every shooter. I know having the banners not being there from start to finish will never create an issue!  You can't say the same about removing them half way thru. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think best practice going forward will definitely be to locate sponsor banners with the thought already in mind of “what if we have to take these down for some reason?”  Outside the stage works well, although sometimes it might not be an option (either because there’s no good spot or because the sponsor really wants their banner to be in pictures and video of people on the stage). If you have to put it on the stage, there’s usually places where they don’t make a significant difference to the stage.

[DKorn]

The banner on the right here probably doesn’t affect the stage, since it’s in a spot no competitor would ever need to go during the stage (no new targets were available from that end of the wall). 

[HoMiE]

I would say that banners being out up are part of the course since it affects the view of course.  Section 1.2.1 of uspsa rules spell out location and view for course design. The appendix spells out what a view is. If putting up a banner the next day changes that view, then the course has been modified. The appendix also defines “significant advantage” as having a greater view or targets which a banner could affect. It doesn’t matter if you’re 6’4” and can can see over the height of a banner. And it doesn’t matter if Troy said it wasn’t an issue or change course. At any match, if the stage is changed, ALL competitors should be notified of the stage changes and given the opportunity to arb it or not per the rules. 

 

I’ve also seen where banners affected max traps by blocking or deflecting the wind. Something to think about when putting up a banner. 

 

[fishhunter3]

simple fix lets go back to solid walls. ( sarcasm, note for those that can't tell) 

Edited April 18, 2019 by fishhunter3

[B_RAD]

Would cutting lines/holes be an issue?

 

I'd think they could make them with wind relief cuts in them. I'm pretty sure I've seen them in banners.