Banners and See-Thru Walls at Area 6

[Big Guy]

Last weekend at the Area 6 match, some of the see-thru walls were covered with large banners that completely obscured the targets behind them (both at short and long distances).  As the match progressed, some of these banners were eliminated because of weather (i.e. high winds) or they simply fell off.  Once the banners were removed, it allowed the shooters a clear view of the targets that were otherwise obscured to those who shot the match during the first 2-3 days.  I believe this translates into shooter inequality.  Is there a ruling that covers these instances?

[ChuckS]

Read section 2.3...

[bret]

20 minutes ago, Big Guy said:

Last weekend at the Area 6 match, some of the see-thru walls were covered with large banners that completely obscured the targets behind them (both at short and long distances).  As the match progressed, some of these banners were eliminated because of weather (i.e. high winds) or they simply fell off.  Once the banners were removed, it allowed the shooters a clear view of the targets that were otherwise obscured to those who shot the match during the first 2-3 days.  I believe this translates into shooter inequality.  Is there a ruling that covers these instances?

What day did you shoot?

 

I shot on Thursday, the banners and some coverings were removed due to wind Sunday afternoon. 

 

I don't think I was at a disadvantage on Thursday and don't think the people shooting Sunday afternoon had an advantage. 

 

You can't engage targets through the walls so i don't see the problem. 

 

Were your scores hurt by the banners?

[driver8M3]

Rain, mud, and bagged targets create a much greater change in competitive equity. Unfortunately, we can't always create or have perfectly equal conditions for all shooters in a multi-day match. It's just part of the game we play.

 

Leaving the banners in place could have created worse problems (if walls were blown over or damaged and not replaced exactly) or safety concerns (you don't want a wall falling on someone running with a loaded gun). 

[Big Guy]

I shot on Saturday and some of the banners were already removed.  From watching Sunday videos, some additional banners were removed.

 

I'm not claiming that it hurt me, as I'm not at the top of the game.  I'm just asking if there is a rule that covers such instances.

 

You indicated that you can't engage targets thru the walls, but you can't argue the fact that you'll get a faster acquisition if you can see the targets before hand.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Big Guy

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Big Guy said:

You indicated that you can't engage targets thru the walls, but you can't argue the fact that you'll get a faster acquisition if you can see the targets before hand.

 

 

I can argue that. You should try it both ways and see.

 

If you can't see the target because of a banner, solid wall, barrel, or whatever, you should at least know where and when it will come into view, and have the gun pointed there as it does so.

[MemphisMechanic]

Personally, I don’t see this as being any bigger a factor than bright sun vs clouds, morning vs noon, or wet ground vs dry terrain.

 

I’d argue that it will actually affect top shooters *less* than novices. Their superb memorization means they already know where the target is going to be without visually acquiring it, and the gun is already up and tracking a couple of steps out.

 

C through B class guys might be motivated go bring the gun up “less late” if they can see it earlier. I suppose. Maybe.

 

(As a lower/mid A-class, I cay say that having the gun up and knowing where I’ll be when the target is available was a huge factor in getting better than my B-class days.)

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Ssanders224]

Eh, I wouldn't (and didn't) notice if banners were there or not. It won't have a bearing on my stage performance. 

Just not something that is worth my observation or thought. 

[bret]

24 minutes ago, Big Guy said:

I shot on Saturday and some of the banners were already removed.  From watching Sunday videos, some additional banners were removed.

 

I'm not claiming that it hurt me, as I'm not at the top of the game.  I'm just asking if there is a rule that covers such instances.

 

You indicated that you can't engage targets thru the walls, but you can't argue the fact that you'll get a faster acquisition if you can see the targets before hand.

 

 

 

 

Might have been a couple of banners down Saturday but not many, I am going through pictures now.

 

Engaging a target through a wall when you can't shoot it is wasting time, you need to get to where you have to get first to start shooting what you can shoot, looking at targets is wasting time. 

 

Banners up or down does not constitute a change in the stage.

 

Sunday a lot of banners came down in the afternoon, I don't think it was an advantage to them, they had wind and had to dodge rain.

[RJH]

Banners down is an advantage,  however, like the poster above said it is an outdoor match and conditions change and match staff has to do what they have to do.  Maybe they can use this as a learning experience for next year.   

 

2.3.3/2.3.3.1 says they can chance it, but 2.3.2 says they have to notify competitors that it was changed.  Just out of curiosity were you notified?

 

 

[TommyD]

We were notified at our stage (4) on Sunday afternoon. This was when the rain started really pouring down and one of the banners was blown down range. It didn't seem to make a difference. As mentioned above, shooting into the sun and slogging in the mud had a much greater effect. So did avoiding ruts left on the stage by hundreds of other shooters. It's part of shooting major outdoor matches at the end of the day. Especially in Florida

[bret]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

Banners down is an advantage,  however, like the poster above said it is an outdoor match and conditions change and match staff has to do what they have to do.  Maybe they can use this as a learning experience for next year.   

 

2.3.3/2.3.3.1 says they can chance it, but 2.3.2 says they have to notify competitors that it was changed.  Just out of curiosity were you notified?

 

 

Banners are not, hard cover, are not walls, are not props, don't have to notify anyone if they come down. 

[MikeBurgess]

Its super enlightening to walk a stage with a national level GM some time after a match to see what they saw and were looking for as they shot. 

its an eye opener when you start hearing things like "as I move across here I want the dot on this mark on that barrel so as soon as it clears the barrel its on the middle of the A on that target"  For some top shooters having the banner in place may actually be an advantage, its easy to know that the A zone will appear right behind the C in that logo as it becomes visible.

 

I just wish I could actually shoot like that.

 

[shred]

Yes, it's a change to the stage.  But...

 

A shooter would have to arbitrate that it caused a significant competitive equity change to get the stage tossed.

IME, having been on several Arb comms, if the organizers did it because of weather, that would be a difficult sell unless there was other circumstances like you could see some activator's action or something besides just the targets sooner.

 

Match organizers should hang banners where they aren't a problem, since I've seen same thing happen between Staff Day and Match Days as well when there is no weather concern.

 

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Its super enlightening to walk a stage with a national level GM some time after a match to see what they saw and were looking for as they shot. 

its an eye opener when you start hearing things like "as I move across here I want the dot on this mark on that barrel so as soon as it clears the barrel its on the middle of the A on that target"  For some top shooters having the banner in place may actually be an advantage, its easy to know that the A zone will appear right behind the C in that logo as it becomes visible.

 

I just wish I could actually shoot like that.

 

That was always the key to the supersonic swingers at area 2. They would hide them behind barrels so you would only see them straight up. You had to remember an index mark (like the fake hoops) and just blast at the first sign of brown. Back to the thread: taking banners down does change the stage. I get the desire for Sponsor visibility but we are using mesh walls for safety, among other reasons, so putting them on the COF walls is not smart to begin with. But experienced people would at least slit the banners to reduce wind resistance. Better not to have them.

[RJH]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Banners are not, hard cover, are not walls, are not props, don't have to notify anyone if they come down. 

It is definitely a vision barrier and walls going from opaque to see through is definitely a change to the stage.  Competitors should be notified of changes to the stage  2.3.2.

 

I don't think the stage should have been tossed, but that is a big change to the stage.

 

Hanging banners on mesh walls is dumb and should probably not be done 

[bret]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

It is definitely a vision barrier and walls going from opaque to see through is definitely a change to the stage.  Competitors should be notified of changes to the stage  2.3.2.

 

I don't think the stage should have been tossed, but that is a big change to the stage.

 

Hanging banners on mesh walls is dumb and should probably not be done 

IMO 2.3.2 does not apply. 

 

Stage was not altered. 

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, bret said:

IMO 2.3.2 does not apply. 

 

Stage was not altered. 

I don't have my rule book in front of me, opaque walls to see through doesn't count as altered? Also are walls considered props? I cant remember 

[DKorn]

Here’s a question:

 

Lets say you had an opaque wall in the spot that the banner was instead of a mesh wall. Between days of the match, a storm blows through and the wind knocks the wall over and damages it to the point of being unusable. No materials are readily available to repair it and the only available replacement walls are snow fence. 

 

Is replacing an opaque wall with a snow fence wall considered a modification to the course? Does it result in a loss of competitive equity? Or, is it considered “routine maintenance” under 2.3.7? Does it depend on where the wall was in the stage?

 

Changing a wall from opaque to snow fence is essentially the same change as removing a banner from a wall, right?

 

Ultimately, I think it’s going to be the RM’s call as to whether competitive equity is affected and whether the stage should be tossed. 

[B_RAD]

Last year at area 4 it was the other way around. The first day of shooting (Thursday) didn't have any banners up at all. For shooters that shot over Sat/Sun, all the banners we're up.

 

If you were given the option to shoot a match with no vision obstructing objects and with banners obstructing certain spots, I find it hard to believe anyone would choose with banners up. 

 

If it would have made a difference in the results or in anyone's performance is somewhat irrelevant IMO and impossible to really say. The match should be the same for everyone.  I doubt if someone lost a match by a small margin, they'd be so uncaring about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by B_RAD

[RJH]

1 hour ago, bret said:

IMO 2.3.2 does not apply. 

 

Stage was not altered. 

 

 

Found my rulebook, 2.3.1 modified course of fire, I don't see how vision barriers being removed would not be considered a physical change to the course of fire.

2.3.7 talks about things that are routine maintenance and not considered a course modification, removing vision barriers are not even close to what is described there, so i don't believe that it falls into the "not limited to" spectrum described in that rule.

 

So since 2.3.1 happened, 2.3.2, should also happen

 

 

[RJH]

49 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Last year at area 4 it was the other way around. The first day of shooting (Thursday) didn't have any banners up at all. For shooters that shot over Sat/Sun, all the banners we're up.

 

If you were given the option to shoot a match with no vision obstructing objects and with banners obstructing certain spots, I find it hard to believe anyone would choose with banners up. 

 

If it would have made a difference in the results or in anyone's performance is somewhat irrelevant IMO and impossible to really say. The match should be the same for everyone.  I doubt if someone lost a match by a small margin, they'd be so uncaring about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This %100

 

Anyone who says otherwise is either FOS, pushing an agenda, or stupid.

 

Imagine 2 shooters, shooter 1 has vision barriers shooter 2 does not.  Both  miss their mark at the same place obscuring  a target.  Shooter 1 moves on and loses 40 points in penalties and points not earned, shooter 2 takes a half step back because he can see the target through the mesh and hits 2 alphas, how is that equal?

 

Oh, and to those who say it only affects C and B class shooters (which it might) , don't forget that C and B class combined generally make up more shooters than all the other classes put together.

 

Also clear walls make walk through  easier, so finding better ways of shooting the stage are easier too.

 

Plenty of people like to blame a competitor when they make a stupid decision or don't follow the rules, but some seem slow to blame match officials when they do the same

 

 

[ChuckS]

Sigh. Again, keep it polite or it will be closed....

[bret]

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

This %100

 

Anyone who says otherwise is either FOS, pushing an agenda, or stupid.

 

Imagine 2 shooters, shooter 1 has vision barriers shooter 2 does not.  Both  miss their mark at the same place obscuring  a target.  Shooter 1 moves on and loses 40 points in penalties and points not earned, shooter 2 takes a half step back because he can see the target through the mesh and hits 2 alphas, how is that equal?

 

Oh, and to those who say it only affects C and B class shooters (which it might) , don't forget that C and B class combined generally make up more shooters than all the other classes put together.

 

Also clear walls make walk through  easier, so finding better ways of shooting the stage are easier too.

 

Plenty of people like to blame a competitor when they make a stupid decision or don't follow the rules, but some seem slow to blame match officials when they do the same

 

 

Banners are banners, not installed as vision barriers.

 

You weren't even there, why are you so concerned about something that didn't affect you.

 

I saw the stages, all of them,  a lot since I photographed it all 4 days, no one got an advantage because banners came down,  I shot Thursday and don't think it hurt me at all with banners being up.

 

Contact Troy since he was there if you don't like what happened at a match you didn't shoot.

[bret]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I don't have my rule book in front of me, opaque walls to see through doesn't count as altered? Also are walls considered props? I cant remember 

Banners are installed as banners, not vision barriers, the stages were approved by DNROI.

 

Troy was there, ask him if it constituted a stage change.