Planning to Shoot USPSA Limited (minor) with my Shadow 2

[hey.moe]

I've been shooting in Production for a while, however my stage planning and execution don't seem to be progressing. While my ability to perform the reload itself is okay, I'd like to have a little more freedom to make stage plans without the limitation of 10 rounds in the mags. So, for the next few months I want to try shooting my gun in Limited. I do plan to go back to Production at some point, so I don't want to modify it extensively. 

 

First order of business is to take advantage of the increased magazine capacity allowance in Limited. Just loading the 17-round Mec Gar AFC mags to capacity would make a tremendous difference.  Extending the mags with new base plates would be even better, as long as I don't sacrifice reliability or function.

 

What combinations of base plates, springs, followers, etc. have you found to work well? 

 

Are there any other alternatives that will increase the capacity within the rules?

 

Any other easy mods that are reversible?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

[philippshen]

I want first to remind you that limited minor is in a huge disadvantage, it would make a lot more sense to shoot CO instead if you want high capacity mags.

 

Anyway, I am using henning based + gram follower spring kit + Mecgar 17 round mag, and it gives me 23+1

Edited February 5, 2019 by philippshen

[Truckin_Thumper]

I went with Production for over a year, JUST for the 10 round and stage planning. Its very hard to run a stage with 10 rounds as the planners are asshats to Production shooters. 

It took me a while, but I got it. Now, running Open is a breeze. 
I suggest sticking it out and get your planning down. Like ^ said, minor Limited does not make much sense, unless you can hit all Alphas or 90% Alphas OR you can fly. 

Other than that, magwell, 140mm mags,  optics. 

[scroadkill]

2 hours ago, hey.moe said:

What combinations of base plates, springs, followers, etc. have you found to work well?

Thanks in advance for your help.

well.. limited minor is a thing. if you can shoot 80% alphas you can estimate the minor penalty will cost you 5% off your score.. but 9mm is a bit easier to shoot imo especially when on the move.  and steel doesn't care. that said I think the 17 rounds mecgars with +4 TTI 140mm pads and stock mecgar followers and springs puts you at 20 rounds reloadable. You want pads you can remove fast and w/o tools.  I ran a 9mm sp01 shadow longslide in 2017 and made B class with it, and then moved to a tso in 9mm for 2018 usually finishing around the top 25%-30%  mark of the B class limited shooters..  for me to make A class I know I will have to start practicing and convert to major.
 

[hey.moe]

Thanks guys,

 

I do understand the disadvantage of shooting minor power factor in Limited, but my ability to plan stages hasn't kept pace with my gun handling and such. Where I am right now, trying to be competitive takes a back seat to learning how to efficiently move through a stage. Once I've got a better handle on that I'll go back to Production. At my age I may never be a top level shooter, but steady improvement is a win in my book.

 

Really, what I'm looking for are recommendations for equipment that'll let me make this quick side-trip so I can get back on track.

 

I've been thinking about the TTI +4 base. Does the Grams follower and spring make the mag any less reliable?

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by hey.moe
clarity

[rowdyb]

mec gar 17 round mags, grams spring and follower, henning base pad get me 140mm mags that are legal and hold 23 rounds.

 

It seems contrary to say it this way, but for Lim minor, it's not how many A you shoot that matters but how many C.

[Mcfoto]

I started in production and moved to Limited. Went from Minor to Major and saw an instant jump of 10% in my classifiers. On the other hand, I found Production *easier* to stage plan. With ten rounds, I reloaded every time I moved my feet. Arrays are 8 shot max for the low-cap guys (SS and revo) so I knew with every array, I'd get two makeups. Now that I'm limited in a .40 gun that has 16 round capacity, I make it through two arrays with NO make ups. So if I miss a steel or see that I've landed into hardcover, chances are I'll go dry before two arrays.

 

Also, it was pointed out to me that the Shadow 2 looks like CZ took the Production rules and built a gun around it. You already have the perfect gun for that division. The only other advantage would be the ability to move mag pouches toward the front and use a hanger on your holster. If it were me, I'd gut out Production.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Mcfoto

[Hi-Power Jack]

13 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

  Now that I'm limited in a .40 gun that has 16 round capacity, 

 

You should be able to get at least 18-19 - and that is a real advantage.     

[Mcfoto]

22 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

You should be able to get at least 18-19 - and that is a real advantage.     

 

Yeah, I have the Dawson extension pads but my mags seem to run smoother if I keep it at 16. Maybe now that I've run them a season, the springs have broken in and and I'll try jammin' two more in there...

[rowdyb]

5 hours ago, hey.moe said:

Any other easy mods that are reversible?

it may seem obvious, but if you're not already running the wide safety, then do so. might as well start with the hammer back/safety on if you're gonna shoot limited.

 

that and the 23 round mags and that's pretty much it equipment wise. other than that just go shoot the same points as the dudes shooting major but 10% faster.......

Edited February 5, 2019 by rowdyb

[MoRivera]

I converted my Shadow 2 to SAO when I had one and ran it in Limited 10.  I live in CT so I'm limited to 10 rounds anyway.  I liked shooting that particular gun better that way in regards to trigger pull and position/length of pull (with an ArmoryCraft SAO trigger).  But it could only be shot in minor, obviously, and I'm not fast/accurate enough to overcome that disadvantage.  Put it back to stock and sold it, and now run a regular Shadow 1 in Production.

Edited February 5, 2019 by MoRivera

[Kilrb]

I started shooting limited with 9mm TS, guys in major kill you with the “C’s” as rowdyb says. I bought a .40 slide setup for my TS and have already started moving up .

 

 

[MoRivera]

56 minutes ago, Kilrb said:

I started shooting limited with 9mm TS, guys in major kill you with the “C’s” as rowdyb says. I bought a .40 slide setup for my TS and have already started moving up .

 

 

I have a .40 TS slide (as well as 9mm conversion barrel) for a longlside SP-01 Shadow build, have shot a few matches with .40 but need to spend more time with it as it always takes me a stage to get used to the increased recoil.  It's not bad by any means but just different and a bit slower.

[GeneBray]

I'm curious as to what the specifics are with regard to stage planning and execution problems.  Seems to me details on what your stage planning and execution problems are is more germaine.  More rounds at the start signal may not solve/help mitigate the problem(s).  On well designed stages, more rounds may make the planning harder not easier since you should have more options on how to shoot the stage.

[zzt]

I'm going to be the nay sayer here.  IF anything, shooting Limited will make you a worse stage planner, especially if you are using 20-23 round mags.  You are only going to have one mag change per course and there is always a spot where you can change mags without losing time.  How does that help with Production planning?

 

Get on a squad with a GM or M and watch what they do.  Thoughtful plans, no wasted motion and lots and lots of As.

[Balakay]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

I'm going to be the nay sayer here.  IF anything, shooting Limited will make you a worse stage planner, especially if you are using 20-23 round mags.  You are only going to have one mag change per course and there is always a spot where you can change mags without losing time.  How does that help with Production planning?

 

Get on a squad with a GM or M and watch what they do.  Thoughtful plans, no wasted motion and lots and lots of As.

I agree with this. If you want to be a better Production shooter, shoot Production.  I wasted 2017 trying to compete in 4 divisions.  It was fun  but my progress stagnated.  I dedicated 2018 to shooting only one division and my classification/match results improved significantly

Edited February 6, 2019 by Balakay

[muncie21]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

Get on a squad with a GM or M and watch what they do. 

^this helped my stage planning skills immensely!  I look at my local matches (where several of my normal squad members Ms and an occasional sponsored GM) as free training classes every weekend.  The bonus is these are a great bunch of guys to shoot with

Edited February 6, 2019 by muncie21

[hey.moe]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

I'm going to be the nay sayer here.  IF anything, shooting Limited will make you a worse stage planner, especially if you are using 20-23 round mags.  You are only going to have one mag change per course and there is always a spot where you can change mags without losing time.  How does that help with Production planning?

 

Get on a squad with a GM or M and watch what they do.  Thoughtful plans, no wasted motion and lots and lots of As.

First off, I appreciate the input and I don't disagree with your assessment. It's not that I think Limited will help with my stage planning. I just want a temporary break from the complexity.

 

You've got to understand that I got a late start in the sport and I'm getting old, so I'm playing catch-up. The particular problem I have with a lot of stages is that I'm able to see more targets from a given position than I have ammo to shoot them. So, in order not to end up running to slide-lock while i'm standing flat-footed I need to save some targets for later. And then I have to remember to shoot them later. My memory was never all that good when I was younger, and it hasn't improved with age. Halfway through a stage I'll make a mental error and get confused, or just plain forget. I end up failing to engage entire targets, shooting targets twice, or forgetting where I'm supposed to go next. I've seen lots of folks figure stage planning out pretty quickly - me, not so much. All the while I'm trying to work on movement into and out of positions and having the gun ready to shoot when the target appears. I'm running short of bandwidth. 

 

My goal is not to be competitive in Limited, as I really like Production and ultimately plan to go back there. A few guys have recommended I try this approach for a little while, presumably to allow me to take things in smaller bites. 

 

I've got a couple of friends, younger guys, who are A and M class shooters in Production. I try to squad with them at every opportunity and watch how they do things. But, it wouldn't be right to impose on their time too much during a match by asking for coaching. I bought Charlie Perez's book and read it probably half a dozen times. Great book, particularly the part about stage planning. It makes a lot of sense when I read it, but when it comes to executing it in a match, well ...      I listen religiously to Steve Anderson's podcast where he repeats his mantra of analyze, strategize, memorize, visualize. But, it seems there are too many distractions at the match, and regardless of how much time I've had to prepare, I'm seldom really ready when it's my turn to go to the line.

 

But, I'm retired now and I've got lots of time to devote to this. My goal is to figure it out. Please keep the suggestions coming.

[zzt]

hey, then go ahead and shoot Limited.  Based on what you just wrote, you'll have a lot more fun and a lot less frustration.  I'll say again it will do absolutely nothing to help you in Production.  That doesn't matter, because I'm predicting you'll like Limited and stick with it.  When your eye get bad enough you can put a red dot on a dovetail adapter and shoot Carry Optics.  When my eyes went South I switched to Open.  

[davsco]

yeah not answering your question, but if older and not the best eyes, $700 gets you a canik with a vortex viper red dot to use in carry optics.  140mm mags and a red dot, that should get your fun factor going!  

 

and, i WOULD ask the better shooters in your squad to give you some feedback after they have also shot that stage or even after the match (to clarify, ask them before the stage or match to watch you but give feedback after they're also done).  most shooters like helping other shooters out.  the big rooms for improvement i see are economy/efficiency or lack thereof.  getting to a target array without the gun up and on target, sticking guns into ports which then have to come out of ports to go the next array, taking extra starts and stops, stuff like that.

[eric4069]

You can test the waters in limited fairly well with just two extended mags supplemented by your 17 round mags as needed.  Usually only one mag change per stage, sometimes two.  Just try it a few matches and see what you think. For extensive discussion of different mag extensions and springs look at carry optics threads or just follow rowdyb’s advice, thats what I do.    

[GJGary]

I was older just getting into the sport also and started in production and SS.

That helped with planning and mag changes. I thought i would never shoot limited then a friend gave me a new TS40 to try and i never gave it back.

I look to have fun and enjoy. I bet you jump into limited and never look back to production.

My eyes are bad and i am milling a venom on my sp01 for the future. 

Again i love the Tactical Sport 

[RJH]

On 2/6/2019 at 5:38 PM, hey.moe said:

 

 

1 My goal is not to be competitive in Limited. 

 

2 Please keep the suggestions coming.

 

I broke your post down to the two most important parts IMO, so here you go haha

 

1 you will definitely reach that goal shooting limited minor. Limited is a  major caliber division and you will soon get aggravated giving up the equivalent of a couple of mikes worth if points before you ever have a chance to make ready on stage one.

 

 

2 my suggestion is instead of throwing good money after bad,  buy a major gun.  Now before you say that is too much money, used plastic guns in 40 are almost free right now and even a stock plastic 40 is better than a high end 9 in limited. Go to a couple of used gun stores or look online and pick up a used glock,  xdm, m&p, and a few mags and have some fun in limited. 

 

I  have tried limited minor and it is an exercise in frustration. So there is one man's opinion, good luck

[Tirppa]

I just started training and competing in IPSC Standard minor. So far it's fine when I'm just learning fundamentals, movement etc but I'm pretty sure I'll migrate to production sooner or later. Right now in our club matches where 7/10 standard shooters are shooting minor it's fine. But as soon as I go to a major match and come to a stage with partials or no-shoots covering most of the A zone I'm gonna be super pissed because I know while I'm slow, I'm gonna be extra slow on those targets compared to the major guys. But I like shooting standard. At this point I don't have to do as many reloads and I only need to master the nice single action trigger. I have enough just learning with grip, stance and manipulating the single action so I kinda like it as a beginner option. 

 

I'm a complete noob so take my "advice" as it is. If you feel like you have to work on your fundamentals and want to cut down the distractions like the DA first shot and 10 round mag limit I think it can be a good idea. Just shoot it like production in the sense that you need to take your time to get those A hits. 

[hey.moe]

Thanks for the help.

 

Just to summarize - I want to take a temporary break from the requirement to limit mag capacity to 10 so I can focus on other aspects of the game. The simplest way to do that, with the least change to the equipment I'm already familiar and comfortable with, is to shoot my Production gun in Limited. I realize that puts me at a competitive disadvantage, but I don't expect to stay in Limited any longer than it takes me to make some progress with my movement and transition skills. 

 

I've taken rowdyb's advice and ordered some Henning base pads with the Grams follower kits. Should be able to try them out this weekend.

Edited February 8, 2019 by hey.moe