Let's play "Which Penalty?" (Production Start Position Question)

[matteekay]

He was shooting a CZ.

I know the class he went to and the instructors; I have the strong impression that the misinformation was a problem with the receiving end and not the transmitter. Also, I’m hoping that the whole experience will encourage him to read his rule book and take responsibility for being in compliance with his chosen division.

In terms of my actions... true, I could have stalled the squad, called for the RM, have everyone wait while a second person explains what I just said, etc. I felt the better course of action was to explain the rule, what the potential consequences are, and then leave it up to him and keep the match going. I caught up with the RM between stages so we lost the least amount of time possible.

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, JAFO said:

Like Sarge said, if they want to shoot Production, they must start hammer down/decocked and the RO should not start them until the gun is in the correct ready condition.  If they refuse, then you move them to Open. 

 

not sure I concur with this. I think it's just a straight-up bump to open. It's the RO's job to make sure they shooter starts in the correct position, but imho it is not the RO's job to coach the shooter regarding division equipment requirements. I don't inspect their mags to make sure there are no more than 10 rounds either, I just bump them to open if I catch them with more than that.

 

OTOH at a local match, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Find out the rule if you don't know it, enforce it from that point forward, make sure everyone learns.

Edited July 27, 2018 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

not sure I concur with this. I think it's just a straight-up bump to open. It's the RO's job to make sure they shooter starts in the correct position, but imho it is not the RO's job to coach the shooter regarding division equipment requirements. I don't inspect their mags to make sure there are no more than 10 rounds either, I just bump them to open if I catch them with more than that.

 

OTOH at a local match, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Find out the rule if you don't know it, enforce it from that point forward, make sure everyone learns.

It’s pretty easy to spot a hammer cocked. That’s basic RO duties. Just like seeing a Magwell or gear that’s not compliant.

[matteekay]

16 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It’s pretty easy to spot a hammer cocked. That’s basic RO duties. Just like seeing a Magwell or gear that’s not compliant.

 

I don't believe he was saying to ignore it. I think he meant it's not the RO's duty to correct them ahead of time - just bump them to Open after they finish their CoF.

[Bkreutz]

11 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

If a shooter came to the line with equipment in positions that indicate they may be shooting Production, I think I would ask what division they were shooting before the start signal if they were cocked and locked.

 

RO's are more than timer holders, or at least they should be.

 

 

 

Had a similar situation a bit ago, asked the shooter and he said had decided to load his mags up and shoot limited. Problem solved.

[Hammer002]

6 hours ago, matteekay said:

In terms of my actions... true, I could (SHOULD) have stalled the squad, called for the RM, have everyone wait while a second person explains what I just said

 

if that's what it took, then, yes, absolutely, yes.  AND a conversation about arguing with the RO with a warning for unsportsmanlike.  Curb that behavior before it comes up again in a different area.  HE is the one stalling the squad.  Could have moved to next shooter too while waiting for RM.

[Janskis]

I was wondering WHY ON EARTH would you put the prod shooter in Open, but apparently you are talking USPSA rules?

That seems really harsh, IPSC rules have a crystal clear ruling that if the first shoot attempted (except for unloaded starts) is not DA, one procedural per occurrence (very many )

Edited July 27, 2018 by Janskis

[mwray]

 
if that's what it took, then, yes, absolutely, yes.  AND a conversation about arguing with the RO with a warning for unsportsmanlike.  Curb that behavior before it comes up again in a different area.  HE is the one stalling the squad.  Could have moved to next shooter too while waiting for RM.

This^^^^^
The RO/CRO catches all the hell for these situations when they are not the ones at fault. Some staff have been known to send them on just to keep things going. We learn from our mistakes. I know I have which has made be more stern with the shooters that want to cause problems

[Hammer002]

51 minutes ago, mwray said:

The RO/CRO catches all the hell for these situations when they are not the ones at fault. Some staff have been known to send them on just to keep things going. We learn from our mistakes. I know I have which has made be more stern with the shooters that want to cause problems

 

^^^This

 

For those who have asked, this is the RO's responsibility.  If there is going to be complaining, its going to be about the RO allowing things he shouldn't, and rightfully so.  ESPECIALLY, God forbid, the shooter in question does well.  This is one of the situations It is actually more the RO's responsibility than the shooter's because there is a responsibility for the RO to ensure the shooter is in compliance with not only his division, but the stage description before starting him.  If he's not, that's on the RO.  The shooter would technically have a get out of jail free card because he can easily argue, in light of the threat of consequence, the RO violated the rules by starting him.  As the RO, you have to do the job and ask - maybe he's shooting limited - we have several guys do that so they can load to capacity.  If the shooter is just plain uncooperative or argumentative, now you are in a different area altogether and should handle it as such.  Likely, my request would be for compliance or to unload/show clear and step off the line for further discussion with the MD while I run the next shooter.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

7 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

I don't believe he was saying to ignore it. I think he meant it's not the RO's duty to correct them ahead of time - just bump them to Open after they finish their CoF.

 

No.

 

8.2.2  The  competitor  assumes  the  start  position  as  specified  in  the  written stage  briefing.  Unless  otherwise  specified,  the  competitor  must  stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides  (see  appendix  E3  for  an  example  of  this).  A  competitor  who  attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect  start  position  was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

 

8.3.1  “Make  Ready”  –  This  command  signifies  the  start  of  “the  Course  of Fire”.  Under  the  direct  supervision  of  the  Range  Officer  the  competitor  must  face  down  range,  or  in  a  safe  direction  as  specified  by  the  Range  Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accor-dance  with  the  written  stage  briefing.  The  competitor  must  then  assume the specified start position.  The Range Officer will not proceed with any further  range  commands  until  the  competitor  is  still  and  is  in  the  correct start position.

[waktasz]

And what is the definition of "start position"

 

 

[racerba]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

And what is the definition of "start position"

 

 

the start position is described in the Written Stage Briefing...

 

and this:
8.3.1  “Make  Ready”  –  This  command  signifies  the  start  of  “the  Course  of Fire”.  Under  the  direct  supervision  of  the  Range  Officer  the  competitor  must  face  down  range,  or  in  a  safe  direction  as  specified  by  the  Range  Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance  with  the  written  stage  briefing.  The  competitor  must  then  assume the specified start position.

Edited July 27, 2018 by racerba

[ATLDave]

19 minutes ago, waktasz said:

And what is the definition of "start position"

 

 

The definitions section of the rulebook says: "

The  location,  shooting  position  and  stance  prescribed 

by a COF prior to issuance of the “Start signal”"

 

On its face, this doesn't appear to encompass equipment stuff.  However, equipment stuff is routinely included in start positions, such as the location of guns and magazines (on barrels, on tables, etc.) and even their condition (loaded, unloaded, loaded-magazine-empty-chamber, etc.).  

 

ETA: 3.2.1 sets forth what each stage briefing must contain.  It separately lists "the handgun ready condition" and "the start position."  This would suggest that handgun status is not part of the start position, and thus would be excluded from the things the RO is supposed to ensure is correct before giving the stanby or beep.  

 

However, that would mean RO's are supposed to start shooters on unloaded-start stages, even if the shooter has loaded their gun at "make ready" and then... what?  

 

The rules were not written by lawyers.  Everything in them doesn't connect perfectly.  Some reasonableness is required on the part of the reader.  

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by ATLDave

[rowdyb]

Start position is the human being relative to the other stuff. It is not  the start condition of the firearm, which is what they're talking about.

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Start position is the human being relative to the other stuff. It is not  the start condition of the firearm, which is what they're talking about.

Correct. The discussion at hand is comprehending what this sentence from the rule means,

Special conditions:—Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked

at the start signal

[ATLDave]

48 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Start position is the human being relative to the other stuff. It is not  the start condition of the firearm, which is what they're talking about.

So, is the handgun being loaded on an unloaded start not something that falls within the scope of RO's not starting shooters until they're in the correct start position?  What is an RO supposed to do if a shooter loads their gun on an unloaded-start stage and assumes the rest of the start position?  Should they start the shooter and assess penalties?  Or should they not proceed with the rest of the commands until the shooter unloads their gun in accordance with the WSB?  

[Balakay]

Might be a dumb question but why the bump to Open instead of Limited or L10?

[mwray]

Might be a dumb question but why the bump to Open instead of Limited or L10?

Because that’s what the rulebook says

[Gary Stevens]

This is not all that complicated. If the shooter is not in compliance with the rulebook take action. Either don't give the MR command and call the next shooter or unload them, call for the RM and get the next shooter on the line.

 

Start positions are simply reminding the shooter what the correct start position is. If that doesn't work, see the sentence above.

[JAFO]

28 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Might be a dumb question but why the bump to Open instead of Limited or L10?

 

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

[JAFO]

8.3.1 "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

 

The above should cover the theoretical "what if they load on an unloaded start" question.  The competitor MUST prepare the gun in accordance with the WSB.

 

Telling them they didn't load a round is not allowed per per 8.1, but the handgun condition is part of the competitor ready condition.  If I see they are not ready per their Division requirements, why would I continue with AYR?  Or are you considering that to be assistance from the RO?

 

8.2 Competitor Ready Condition

This designates when, under the direct command of a Range Officer:

8.2.1 The handgun is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing, and is in compliance with the requirements of the relevant Division.

[rowdyb]

start condition can be part of the start position. they are not mutually exclusive. this is why the written brief is so important.

 

 

[racerba]

3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

So, is the handgun being loaded on an unloaded start not something that falls within the scope of RO's not starting shooters until they're in the correct start position?  What is an RO supposed to do if a shooter loads their gun on an unloaded-start stage and assumes the rest of the start position?  Should they start the shooter and assess penalties?  Or should they not proceed with the rest of the commands until the shooter unloads their gun in accordance with the WSB?  

remind the shooter that it's an unloaded start and reissue the "Make Ready" command...

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

So, is the handgun being loaded on an unloaded start not something that falls within the scope of RO's not starting shooters until they're in the correct start position?  What is an RO supposed to do if a shooter loads their gun on an unloaded-start stage and assumes the rest of the start position?  Should they start the shooter and assess penalties?  Or should they not proceed with the rest of the commands until the shooter unloads their gun in accordance with the WSB?  

I tell them “this is an unloaded start”

[JAFO]

18 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

start condition can be part of the start position. they are not mutually exclusive. this is why the written brief is so important.

 

 

 

I noticed that some clubs (mine included) are using WSB's that list the Start Position and Gun Ready Condition in different sections.  The Classifier WSB's all list them both in the same section.  I'll have to suggest we combine them.