Let's play "Which Penalty?" (Production Start Position Question)

[matteekay]

Boy, I love Production rules, lol.

 

Start position on Production guns is clear as crystal (finally):

 

"Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. If a decocking lever is installed and used, the term fully decocked is the position where the hammer rests once the decocking lever has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed. Manually decocked hammers must be fully down." - Appendix D4 Addendum, Special Conditions

 

So... what happens to a competitor who starts with a DA/SA gun, hammer cocked with the safety on ?

 

It would be obvious if they didn't activate the safety – match DQ:

"(a DQ is issued when) A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied." - 10.5.11.2

 

With the safety ON, my gut is that it's a quick trip to Open Minor. This is the only close ruling I could find:

 

"A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer, (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division." - NROI Ruling "Trigger Action Requirements for Production Division", 05/20/15

 

Does anyone know a better one?  

[Sarge]

You can't start them that way. Must lower the hammer in Production like you said.

[matteekay]

So it's on the RO to wait until they make the correction? What if they refuse?

 

Asking ENTIRELY hypothetically because I TOTALLY didn't have a shooter try to tell me I was wrong... 

[mwray]

I had a newer shooter ask me about starting with the hammer and safety on. I said if you think you have to start in that position shoot limited and stop worrying about it

[mwray]

So it's on the RO to wait until they make the correction? What if they refuse?
 
Asking ENTIRELY hypothetically because I TOTALLY didn't have a shooter try to tell me I was wrong... 

If they refuse DQ them for being unsportsmanlike like and arguing with the RO

[racerba]

if they refused, then they can shoot in a different division...

 

[MikeBurgess]

I would go with bump to open for non compliance with division requirments, just like starting with 11 in the mag or a magazine on a magnet.

Also, manually decocking to half cock will result in a trip to open (sept 2015 ruling) so I would go with full cocked and safety on being a similar offence with a similar penalty.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by MikeBurgess

[MemphisMechanic]

Open division bump.

 

Hammer back, safety off is asafety violation and thus a DQ, as you said.

 

There’s nothing unsafe about starting cocked on safe, it just doesn’t fit Production division’s rules... poof. You’re shooting in Open. Just like someone with 12rds in a mag or an otherwise illegal gun.

[waktasz]

23 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would go with bump to open for non compliance with division requirments, just like starting with 11 in the mag or a magazine on a magnet.

Also, manually decocking to half cock will result in a trip to open (sept 2015 ruling) so I would go with full cocked and safety on being a similar offence with a similar penalty.

 

 

Yep, Open. 

 

Half cock without safety on is a DQ also

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by waktasz

[matteekay]

43 minutes ago, mwray said:

If they refuse DQ them for being unsportsmanlike like and arguing with the RO

 

LOL, much as I'd like to some times... This actually wasn't overly hostile, but it's one of the VERY few clear rules in the book. Production = hammer down. I'm glad they've clarified that to include decockers in the latest addendum.

 

 

43 minutes ago, racerba said:

if they refused, then they can shoot in a different division...

 

 

22 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Open division bump.

 

Hammer back, safety off is asafety violation and thus a DQ, as you said.

 

There’s nothing unsafe about starting cocked on safe, it just doesn’t fit Production division’s rules... poof. You’re shooting in Open. Just like someone with 12rds in a mag or an otherwise illegal gun.

 

Right, the spirit of the penalty to me was "division non-compliance", which is always a bump to Open as far as I can tell. The funny thing is that he was geared for Limited - CZ, mags capable of holding 18+ rounds, etc. I think he thought Production would be less competitive, which has really become a lol-worthy sentiment lately.

[racerba]

3 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

I'm glad they've clarified that to include decockers in the latest addendum.

 

 

That has always been the rule...

Edited July 26, 2018 by racerba

[matteekay]

It wasn't specifically listed in the 2014 rulebook, so you had to direct shooters to a 2014 NROI ruling. They've added it directly to the new addendum. 

[MemphisMechanic]

36 minutes ago, matteekay said:

The funny thing is that he was geared for Limited - CZ, mags capable of holding 18+ rounds, etc. I think he thought Production would be less competitive, which has really become a lol-worthy sentiment lately.

 

If he was looking to place well in Limited shooting minor, he was already in for a rough day.

[Gary Stevens]

If a shooter came to the line with equipment in positions that indicate they may be shooting Production, I think I would ask what division they were shooting before the start signal if they were cocked and locked.

 

RO's are more than timer holders, or at least they should be.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Gary Stevens

[matteekay]

I did, hence why we're having this conversation.

[B_RAD]

Are we really expecting the RO's to be able to distinguish between all the different types of fire control parts that are possible in production?  Come on!  Let's just left everyone start with the hammer cocked, no safety and the gun in their hands an aimed, finger in trigger!  This would solve a lot of confusion on what's allowed and what's not!

Edited July 26, 2018 by B_RAD

[matteekay]

In b4 someone misses the joke, lol...

[MemphisMechanic]

@B_RAD so... PCC special snowflake treatment for everyone, then?

[JAFO]

Like Sarge said, if they want to shoot Production, they must start hammer down/decocked and the RO should not start them until the gun is in the correct ready condition.  If they refuse, then you move them to Open.  8.2.1 requires the competitor to have their handgun in the correct ready condition for the relevant Division.  At first, I thought they should just not be started at all, but 8.3.1 actually makes that statement as it pertains to the competitor being in the correct start position.  If they want to screw themselves into Open by starting hammer back, safety on, so be it.

 

A long time ago, I had a new shooter who registered for Production with a CZ and was trying to start hammer back/safety engaged on the first stage.  I told her the hammer must be down in Production.  She seemed to think that was strange, but lowered the hammer.  On the start signal, she drew and manually cocked the hammer back.  After the stage I asked why, to which she replied, "Well, it's a single action gun.  That's the only way I could get the first shot off."  We moved her to Limited, and I learned to ask whether CZ's are DA/SA or SAO. 

[B_RAD]

45 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@B_RAD so... PCC special snowflake treatment for everyone, then?

I didn't even think but thats kind of how they get treated. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@B_RAD heck I shoot PCC... and still think that for an uprange start, they should have the gun on a table which they stand behind, facing uprange, wrists above shoulders.

 

Should have made it harder than handgun, not easier.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[B_RAD]

6 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@B_RAD heck I shoot PCC... and still think that for an uprange start, they should have the gun on a table which they stand behind, facing uprange, wrists above shoulders.

 

Should have made it harder than handgun, not easier.

 

Smart on thier part. Get those guys who don't practice to still show up and they finish in the middle of the pack and then post to FB!

 

 

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

I did, hence why we're having this conversation.

 

OK I'm confused. You ask him what Division he was shooting before the start signal, he said Production, and you started him anyway?

[matteekay]

3 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

OK I'm confused. You ask him what Division he was shooting before the start signal, he said Production, and you started him anyway?

 

Correct. I advised him that Production requires a hammer-down start, he insisted that the class he took a few weeks before informed him that he could begin cocked and locked. I believe this was his first or second match. I told him that the rules didn't agree and that the penalty for starting that way would most likely be a move to Open and that I'd have to verify (because I don't like being the RO who spouts rulings when I'm not 100% certain). He chose to start his stage cocked and locked.

 

Kicked it to the RM afterward who validated that he could not start with his hammer back. We opted to let him finish the match in Production provided he started in the correct configuration – this was a small club match, and we'd rather instruct and have shooters be informed. I believe he zeroed that stage anyway.

[Gary Stevens]

Oh well, personally I wouldn't have started him, but sometimes experience is the best teacher.

 

Wonder if he tried to get a refund on his class.

 

just for curiosity what gun was he shooting?