Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.

[George16]

It’s funny reading posts of old people bickering at each on internet forums. It’s great entertainment . I’m just wondering how would have been if forums were available when they were growing up . 

 

Too much discussion had had been going on regarding this topic. We already have different division to try to accommodate people wanting to shoot. If a shooter doesn’t want to do a reload every 8-10 rounds, then go limited or open. That’s plain and simple. 

[perttime]

19 minutes ago, George16 said:

If a shooter doesn’t want to do a reload every 8-10 rounds, then go limited or open. That’s plain and simple. 

 

That can be turned around too.

If you want to reload every 8-10 rounds, then go USPSA Single Stack or IPSC Classic. That’s plain and simple. 

[George16]

18 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

That can be turned around too.

If you want to reload every 8-10 rounds, then go USPSA Single Stack or IPSC Classic. That’s plain and simple. 

That’s right and that should be it. Plain and simple. But then again, it has or needs to be complicated in order to become a good debate for the armchair lawyers.

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, perttime said:

 

That can be turned around too.

If you want to reload every 8-10 rounds, then go USPSA Single Stack or IPSC Classic. That’s plain and simple. 

 

or production. why force everyone to buy new 1911's just to reload more often?

 

IMHO, people agitating for new rules that render significant numbers of existing competition guns obsolete need to  just <<removed by Admin.>>.

[ima45dv8]

Argue your point. Don't argue at each other.

 

 

It's just as easy to remove people as insults.

...Admin

[happygunner77]

12 hours ago, perttime said:

 

That can be turned around too.

If you want to reload every 8-10 rounds, then go USPSA Single Stack or IPSC Classic. That’s plain and simple. 

 

Single stack is just single stack, that's it. Production has more options for the types of guns. No comparison there. 

 

Again, people who complain need to learn to reload, otherwise, shoot other divisions. All that complaining should have been spent time dry firing and reload instead of whining here. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by happygunner77

[perttime]

I've always understood that the whole point of Production is (was?) being able to use modern out-of-the-box handguns that you could actually carry.

[GrumpyOne]

The be all, end all of the matter is....If you don't like Production, don't shoot Production.  

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, perttime said:

I've always understood that the whole point of Production is (was?) being able to use modern out-of-the-box handguns that you could actually carry.

 

Common carry guns would be an interesting division in USPSA, maybe something like 30 ounce max weight, 3.5" barrels & 7 +1 round limit?  I think we have too many divisions now, but that would still be kind of fun & about everybody has a carry gun. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[happygunner77]

6 hours ago, perttime said:

I've always understood that the whole point of Production is (was?) being able to use modern out-of-the-box handguns that you could actually carry.

 

Who says you can't do that in prod now? 

Edited July 16, 2018 by happygunner77

[ATLDave]

Having different preferences as to how, in a vacuum, "production" should be structured in the abstract is all well and good.  However, where a division has existed for years, is extremely popular, and people have invested real money (collectively millions of dollars, to be sure) in gear that conforms to/is advantageous under the current rules, then equipment rule changes should be undertaken only in great need.  It's not enough just to have some bare personal preference for less reloading, or to think that the name "production" somehow implies full-capacity use of magazines.  You need to have some actual, important reason for seeking a rule change that would be detrimental to all the shooters who like the division the way it is and have bought gear in reliance on the existing rules.

 

Consider, for a moment, the cautionary tale of USPSA's revolver division.  Revolver was never the biggest division, but there was a time when it was pretty active.  There were a small number of gun models that were universally regarded as optimal, and everyone who shot revolver seriously had one (or more) of them - moonclipped N-frame S&W's, mostly 625's.  USPSA decided, however, that people shooting revolver would enjoy the greater capacity of 8-round revolvers.  So they allowed 8-round minor revolvers.  Suddenly, the previously-optimal gear was now at a serious competitive disadvantage.  A few people ran out and bought new revolvers with 8 rounds.  But the division mostly just lost shooters.  Now, revolver is (sadly, IMO) a very marginal division.  Many matches with 100+ shooters will have zero revolver shooters.  

Moral of the story: Don't screw with equipment rules for established divisions without a compelling need.  "I wanna" is not a compelling need.

[ATLDave]

6 hours ago, perttime said:

I've always understood that the whole point of Production is (was?) being able to use modern out-of-the-box handguns that you could actually carry.

Well there's your problem right there.  

[usmc1974]

I shoot my Beretta now for everything with 20 +1 mergar mags mostly 3 gun. That said there was a time when I shot limited major, with high caps, with some production shooters that smoked all of us LM shooters.  I think it is best to shoot a gun you love and have fun. IMHO

Edited July 16, 2018 by usmc1974

[RJH]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

Having different preferences as to how, in a vacuum, "production" should be structured in the abstract is all well and good.  However, where a division has existed for years, is extremely popular, and people have invested real money (collectively millions of dollars, to be sure) in gear that conforms to/is advantageous under the current rules, then equipment rule changes should be undertaken only in great need.  It's not enough just to have some bare personal preference for less reloading, or to think that the name "production" somehow implies full-capacity use of magazines.  You need to have some actual, important reason for seeking a rule change that would be detrimental to all the shooters who like the division the way it is and have bought gear in reliance on the existing rules.

 

Consider, for a moment, the cautionary tale of USPSA's revolver division.  Revolver was never the biggest division, but there was a time when it was pretty active.  There were a small number of gun models that were universally regarded as optimal, and everyone who shot revolver seriously had one (or more) of them - moonclipped N-frame S&W's, mostly 625's.  USPSA decided, however, that people shooting revolver would enjoy the greater capacity of 8-round revolvers.  So they allowed 8-round minor revolvers.  Suddenly, the previously-optimal gear was now at a serious competitive disadvantage.  A few people ran out and bought new revolvers with 8 rounds.  But the division mostly just lost shooters.  Now, revolver is (sadly, IMO) a very marginal division.  Many matches with 100+ shooters will have zero revolver shooters.  

Moral of the story: Don't screw with equipment rules for established divisions without a compelling need.  "I wanna" is not a compelling need.

 

What kind of crap is this?  A well thought out and reasoned post, we cant have this type of junk.  This is the internet, only emotional responses and "it has to be my way'" post allowed.  

[Mcfoto]

Here's my take at this point in the thread:

 

When I was new to USPSA a whole 3.5 years ago (stop laughing), I started with Production. I had a bone stock XDm and after reading the division definitions, it seemed like the place to start. The name of the division seemed to define what I had. The 10 round limit seemed strange considering it was roughly 60% of the capacity of my mags but I spent a lot of dry fire time with reloads and got fairly good at it. After a while, I adopted the strategy that I would reload every time I moved my feet and it seemed to work out. I now shoot Limited and in retrospect, if I were to do it again, I'd start there. Less reloading and less restrictions on belt placement.

 

In my short tenure, I've noticed that Production has its own pack of high-level shooters who, like pointed out above, spend lots of money on great guns. As was pointed out to me, the Shadow 2 looks like they took the Production rules and built a $1500 race gun around it. Therefore, I think the issue with "Production" is that its no longer the "beginner" division. Seems to me we need somehow to communicate the right division for someone to show up to their first match with a stock new gun, and have fun.

 

As for the comments on Revolver dying, we have a small but strong contingency here and a couple ICORE matches. Eight-shots are at an advantage in ICORE as they are no longer 6 shot neutral (although one of the matches tries.) There is no way I'd shoot USPSA with a 6 shot. Even with eight on board, its not for the faint of heart. As one of our revolver shooters says, "shooting revolver in USPSA is like walking the tight rope without a net, not a good idea until you're really good at it."

[perttime]

3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

Well there's your problem right there.  

 

Yep. Apparently USPSA Production is all about shooting a gun with 10 round capacity, instead.

[SCTaylor]

44 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

In my short tenure, I've noticed that Production has its own pack of high-level shooters who, like pointed out above, spend lots of money on great guns. As was pointed out to me, the Shadow 2 looks like they took the Production rules and built a $1500 race gun around it. Therefore, I think the issue with "Production" is that its no longer the "beginner" division. Seems to me we need somehow to communicate the right division for someone to show up to their first match with a stock new gun, and have fun.

 

 

Never was the intent. Limited Minor is much more the "beginner" division for just the reasons you mentioned... " I'd start there (Limited). Less reloading and less restrictions on belt placement."

 

Anyhow, Production from 10 to 15 rounds is not even worth my time to type this.  I just spent 2 days shooting the US IPSC Nationals where 15rd versus 10rds had an impact, making a difference in stage plans.

 

Change it or not, there is very little difference in the Production game.

[ATLDave]

3 hours ago, perttime said:

 

Yep. Apparently USPSA Production is all about shooting a gun with 10 round capacity, instead.

Correct.  That's exactly what it is currently "all about."  Exactly that.  It could be about something else.  But juggling lots of reloads (without a magwell), dealing with a non-SAO trigger,  and minor scoring is precisely what it is all about.  

 

It could be about something completely different.  But all the people who are invested in the division as-is and who like it as-is might be put off.  That's worth more than the opinion of someone who is not currently invested in the division.  

[wtturn]

Therefore, I think the issue with "Production" is that its no longer the "beginner" division.

It never was.

Limited (minor) is the beginner division.

Also the Stock II is a $900 +/- gun.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[wtturn]

Apparently some of you will not rest until you are able to completely rewrite production division into some incoherent mismash of rules that suit your tastes.

Funny how everyone's line in the sand seems to correspond precisely with your own pet modification or tweak to the equipment rules.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[Mcfoto]

4 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Also the Stock II is a $900 +/- gun.
 

 

 

I was referring to the CZ Shadow 2. From their site: MSRP $1,299.00 plus mags, a tune, etc. Still more than double the stock plastic stiker-fired garden variety.

[wtturn]

 
I was referring to the CZ Shadow 2. From their site: MSRP $1,299.00 plus mags, a tune, etc. Still more than double the stock plastic stiker-fired garden variety.

Ah, I misread.

Even so, I paid $950 and $900 respectively for my pair of shadow 2s

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[Mcfoto]

4 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Ah, I misread.

Even so, I paid $950 and $900 respectively for my pair of shadow 2s

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

 

Dang, I want your source. Those are the used prices out here. BTW, when I read your posts, I hear the voice of the Stranger from the Big Lobowski in my head. Probably intentional. The Dude abides...

[George16]

That’s how much CZ USA sells them through their MIL/LE sales program. 

[vluc]

If I recollect, there is more to making USPSA and IPSC similar in Production that just the magazine capacity.  Modifications, OEM parts, trigger pull weights, all that lovely stuff.