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Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.


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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

no, because that turns it into a gear race, and after 1 season, everyone will be running the 1 semi-custom race gun that holds the most rounds.

Which is pretty much is current state in uspsa and ipsc production divisions. 

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2 minutes ago, truespode said:



not cause any issue

 

 

Being serious, momentarily. It would completely change the stage planning/strategy of the division, it would be a completely different challenge. I shoot production Fri & limited Saturday at my local club each month, same everything except round count & power factor, completely different game. 

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7 minutes ago, truespode said:

Shoot a 1911 or Shield in production if you want. 

 

One of those is for-sure not legal in production.  I don't know whether anyone has bothered to get the Shield on the list.  1911's, being SAO, are not production legal, no matter how many are made.  Thus underscoring that mass-production is hardly the only defining characteristic of the division.

 

7 minutes ago, truespode said:

The way production is right now fine but it would be just as good and not cause any issue by removing magazine restrictions for those in the allowed production list. All of the sky is falling over a few extra rounds is laughable. Other orgs do it differently with no issue so there is no proof it will become an arms race or anything like that.

 

 

You're missing the point.  For those who are invested in production currently, a central part of the appeal is lots of reloading.  They LIKE it that way.  

 

 

Edited by ATLDave
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9 minutes ago, truespode said:


 

 


Shoot a 1911 or Shield in production if you want. I just think a magazine restriction doesn't matter at all and should be removed. Keep all the other rules or take some away. The way production is right now fine but it would be just as good and not cause any issue by removing magazine restrictions for those in the allowed production list. All of the sky is falling over a few extra rounds is laughable. Other orgs do it differently with no issue so there is no proof it will become an arms race or anything like that.

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1911 is not legal in production.

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6 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

Shouldn't be forced to compete against tricked-out SAO guns just because I want to load my mags to capacity.

You say that as if it is self-evident or persuasive.   

 

Maybe I think I shouldn't be forced to compete against guys with 171mm magazines and optics just because I want to put a compensator on my gun.  But I would, because the essence of limited (the division I typically shoot) involves the lack of any comps/ports.   If I get it into my head that maybe I'd like one of the core restrictions removed, I shouldn't expect all the people who are currently invested (both mentally and in terms of money spent on gear) in the current division to go along with my scheme.

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Just now, ATLDave said:

You say that as if it is self-evident or persuasive.    

 

My whole point is that I should be able to go out and buy a gun, take it out of the box, load the mags up, and shoot a match with it against other people who are shooting factory guns with little-to-no modification. 

 

People justify 10 round capacity restriction by saying that it adds some magical layer of strategy to the sport, and reinforces good fundamentals.  I'd agree with that to a certain extent, but all it really does is appease some clueless legislators who think mags with 10 rounds in them are somehow less deadly than mags that hold 17.  Pretty soon those same legislators will put restrictions on aftermarket triggers, and all those new rule changes to Production division will have to be overturned.  lol

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3 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

My whole point is that I should be able to go out and buy a gun, take it out of the box, load the mags up, and shoot a match with it against other people who are shooting factory guns with little-to-no modification. 

That's not what the division has ever been in the US.  As we have pointed out repeatedly, there are many, many guns that you can buy and take out of the box and be excluded from Production, magazine size aside.  You can't go buy a 1911 with 7-round mags and shoot production.  You cannot go buy a Glock 17C and shoot production, regardless of how many rounds you put in the magazine.  

 

Production is not defined primarily by "out of the box."  It just isn't.  Very, very few people who shoot more than a handful of matches in Production have a gun that is anything like "out of the box."  

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Just now, ATLDave said:

That's not what the division has ever been.  As we have pointed out repeatedly, there are many, many guns that you can buy and take out of the box and be excluded from Production, magazine size aside.  You can't go buy a 1911 with 7-round mags and shoot production.  Production is not defined primarily by "out of the box."  It just isn't.  

 

A bone stock Glock 34 shooting minor is not the same thing as a custom 2011 making major.  

 

It just isn't.  

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You're missing the point.  For those who are invested in production currently, a central part of the appeal is lots of reloading.  They LIKE it that way.  
 
 
As I said earlier I went to production to work on reloading and yes I like it that way but objectively speaking removing the magazine restrictions won't change much. It won't change classifiers at all and only a little on strategy for other states depending on the gun.

The shield and 1911 comment was mostly tongue and cheek.

There are already other mods made to a production gun that makes it a non production gun. Removing magazine restrictions doesn't make it a non production gun but a trigger job does.

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2 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

A bone stock Glock 34 shooting minor is not the same thing as a custom 2011 making major.  

 

It just isn't.  

 

Correct.  Of course, I don't see many people shooting "bone stock" Glock 34's in production, nor are most of the guns in limited actual custom guns.  

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4 minutes ago, truespode said:

There are already other mods made to a production gun that makes it a non production gun. Removing magazine restrictions doesn't make it a non production gun but a trigger job does. 


Exactly.  The "production" division is not about shooting guns "out of the box."  The division, as it has developed (and been embraced) is about juggling magazines 4-5 times per stage.  Personally, that's not what I want to do.  But that's part of why I shoot LTD.  

 

If a large majority of committed production shooters wanted to change the mag limits, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  But, at least where I am, most of the non-casuals who shoot production really like the 10-round limit.  That's a big part of why they shoot production.  So changing it would screw them.

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2 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

 

Correct.  Of course, I don't see many people shooting "bone stock" Glock 34's in production, nor are most of the guns in limited actual custom guns.  

 

Right, just using two extreme examples to illustrate the point I'm trying to make.  

 

Shooting a relatively unmodified 9mm gun with full magazines shouldn't automatically throw you into a division where you're at a huge disadvantage.  

 

10 round limits are political bs.  The vast majority of states do not have magazine restrictions, so we shouldn't have to pander to the minority.  I feel like L-10 and P-10 would be a fair compromise.  

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19 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

You're missing the point.  For those who are invested in production currently, a central part of the appeal is lots of reloading.  They LIKE it that way.  

 

 

The reloading challenge is a blast when you are on and can hit them slick, the stage planning is more fun and you see a larger variety of choices, but what I like best about the division is the focus on consistent accuracy.

 

With any division scored minor you need alphas, with limited capacity you also need to be able to plan & execute consistently with few or even no extra shots for a parachute, Texas stars & plate racks & etc are just to me more intense and more fun. 

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38 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

15 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

Right, just using two extreme examples to illustrate the point I'm trying to make.  

 

Shooting a relatively unmodified 9mm gun with full magazines shouldn't automatically throw you into a division where you're at a huge disadvantage.  

 

10 round limits are political bs.  The vast majority of states do not have magazine restrictions, so we shouldn't have to pander to the minority.  I feel like L-10 and P-10 would be a fair compromise.  

And I shouldn't have to change my division to cater to you.

 

Production is pretty popular. Leave it alone...?

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Just now, TrackCage said:

 

And I shouldn't have to change my division to cater to you.

 

Production is pretty popular. Leave it alone...?

 

 

No catering going on here.  I shoot .40 in Limited with full mags now.  

 

Just making conversation.  That's what we do here, right?

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Just now, sixsixnine said:

 

 

No catering going on here.  I shoot .40 in Limited with full mags now.  

 

Just making conversation.  That's what we do here, right?

Making conversation sure, but it seems many of those advocating for changes to production aren't the ones who shoot the division. I guess I just see that as strange.

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Just now, TrackCage said:

Making conversation sure, but it seems many of those advocating for changes to production aren't the ones who shoot the division. I guess I just see that as strange.

 

I left Production because of all the reasons I'm discussing.

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Exactly.  The "production" division is not about shooting guns "out of the box."  The division, as it has developed (and been embraced) is about juggling magazines 4-5 times per stage. 


I fully understand what your are saying but really the class is PINO

Production In Name Only

I have no problem with the rules per se and will continue my quest to become a B shooter this year in Production but realistically that is only the name of the class but a misnomer since so many changes can be made.

Ironically one thing that comes standard on the gun, the magazine, is not to be used as it came.

But if I ran things there would be less classes and simpler things. But that would ruin it for a lot of people I am sure :)

Even though I disagree I am not complaining. I support things staying the way they are but won't have a problem with the magazine change if it ever happened just as I don't have problem with allowing trigger jobs even though I disagree with it.

The joy and curse of being a C shooter is that no rule change or gun change will make me a better shooter :)

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The issue really isn't the magazine restriction... It's that production isn't really about production. It is just the name of a class that you can shoot a gun with a modified trigger, grip... modify things so the gun is no longer standard on the gun when bought.

With all the mods now allowed changing the mag rule won't matter and the name of the class will still be a misnomer.

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