Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.

[Mcfoto]

11 minutes ago, malobukov said:

The problem is when someone living in NY drives to a match in PA or flies to a major match.

 

The rule applies to the law in the location of the match. If a competitor chooses to compete in a non-restricted location, it's up to them to obtain or keep mag capacities beyond what is legal in their home state. For instance, a fellow shooter moved from Oregon (no restrictions) to Hawaii where possession of over 10 round mags is a felony. He keeps only 10 round mags in Hawaii. When he comes back to visit in Oregon, he has a supply of full-capacity mags that he keeps here with friends and relatives so he can complete that way. So there are ways around it. I believe that's why Limited 10 was created to allow restricted state shooters to compete with Limited gear.

 

If the "problem" is that Production will be unfair, probably the solution would be Production 10 because everyone agrees: we need another division...

Edited July 12, 2018 by Mcfoto

[malobukov]

5 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

Not understanding where the "problem" is.

There is no problem now. Production is popular, everyone plays by the same rules, why fix what’s not broken.

 

If mag capacity were to change to 15, this creates problems for people living in states with 10 round restriction. What if they don’t have friends in the state where the Nationals are held. How can they train stage planning and time reloads at their local range. Why do they suddenly need to buy another set of magazines or switch divisions just because somebody decided to change the rules.

[Mcfoto]

7 minutes ago, malobukov said:

There is no problem now. Production is popular, everyone plays by the same rules, why fix what’s not broken.

 

If mag capacity were to change to 15, this creates problems for people living in states with 10 round restriction. What if they don’t have friends in the state where the Nationals are held. How can they train stage planning and time reloads at their local range. Why do they suddenly need to buy another set of magazines or switch divisions just because somebody decided to change the rules.

 

Got it. I follow your logic now and have edited my post.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

 we need another division...

 

My vote is for pcc 15, it is fun to watch most of those guys try to reload!

[ATLDave]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

My vote is for pcc 15, it is fun to watch most of those guys try to reload!

Only once or twice.  Not for 6+ stages.  

[IHAVEGAS]

Point taken!

[L3324temp]

While I no longer live in a ban state many do. Leave production at 10 so those that do can travel to other states and compete.


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[MemphisMechanic]

I like production for the 10 round capacity. The strategy challenges imposed by a limited capacity are the most emjoyable part.

 

Keep it the way it is.

[Stuey]

There is no problem now. Production is popular, everyone plays by the same rules, why fix what’s not broken.
 
If mag capacity were to change to 15, this creates problems for people living in states with 10 round restriction. What if they don’t have friends in the state where the Nationals are held. How can they train stage planning and time reloads at their local range. Why do they suddenly need to buy another set of magazines or switch divisions just because somebody decided to change the rules.

How is this different for the PCC folks? Anyone living in NY or CA have the same problem?

I am for the 15 round limit for Production, but yes I am probably in the minority.

[ima45dv8]

And just exactly why is it a good goal to emulate and get in line with the IPSC rulebook?

To what end?  Just because. . . .?!  

 

We fought for years to have our own U.S. rulebook. Really. I know most of y'all don't know. That's OK.

 

Those of you who receive the USPSA magazine or are privy to the online version saw the recent accolades heaped upon former USPSA President Michael Voight. This may not have been covered adequately in those documents, but among his greatest accomplishments was looking the then-IPSC President Nick Alexakos in the eye and saying, "if we don't get our own rulebook. . .we're gone". Really?!   Yeah.

 

The money the USPSA puts into IPSC, along with he number of members we comprise, is HUGE. Comrade Nick realized he was up against a juggernaut and backed down after years of contention.

 

C'mon. WE (USMC Ret. Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper) started IPSC in this country and it only got relegated to the smaller position of a Regional Directorate years later. Leadership of the organization moved to some European potentate and they started dictating to us how our matches would be run. . .because of what was normal or popular in small directorates across the planet.

 

We got our rulebook as a result of Mike's brass balls and we need to make sure we keep it. 

 

We'll run our divisions as we see fit to meet the needs of our shooters. Anything else would be bowing down to wishes of a minuscule minority.

 

No. Leave our Production as is. 

 

 

[Inkw8ll]

If the 2 different divisions had the same rules, wouldn't they just be the same division?

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[race1911]

 

Quote

 

If mag capacity were to change to 15, this creates problems for people living in states with 10 round restriction. What if they don’t have friends in the state where the Nationals are held. How can they train stage planning and time reloads at their local range. Why do they suddenly need to buy another set of magazines or switch divisions just because somebody decided to change the rules.

It's a very commonplace occurence living in a 10 round mag capacity place such as Canada where you also shoot in the US sometimes....You purchase mags that can accomodate 15 or more rounds.....in the state (or country) you live with a 10 round restriction you "pin" them so they cannot accept more than 10 rounds....go out of state where 15 can be used and you "unpin" those mags so they can be used to full capacity...you "re-pin" those mags before you go back home to your 10 round restricted state (or country)

Edited July 13, 2018 by race1911
less info

[ima45dv8]

24 minutes ago, Inkw8ll said:

If the 2 different divisions had the same rules, wouldn't they just be the same division?

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk
 

Have them (IPSC) adopt our 10-round limit and rules and they would be the same division. 

Why should it be the other way around?

[malobukov]

57 minutes ago, Stuey said:

How is this different for the PCC folks? Anyone living in NY or CA have the same problem?

Yes. 10 round limit still applies, and there's also NY SAFE act and its CA equivalent that prohibit pistol grips and other scary features.

[malobukov]

50 minutes ago, race1911 said:

[...] "unpin" those mags [...] "re-pin" those mags [...] drill out with a cordless, then use the rivet gun

Mags have to be "permanently modified". While it's not well defined what "permanent" means, I think it would be rather difficult to argue the point with a zealous prosecutor. Especially if you have a cordless drill, rivets, and rivet gun in your trunk next to the suspicious magazines. And a forum post describing how to unpin "permanently" modified mags. I see absolutely no reason to risk a felony convicion (and loss of 2A rights for life) just because somebody changed the rules.

Edited July 13, 2018 by malobukov
completeness

[ima45dv8]

37 minutes ago, malobukov said:

Yes. 10 round limit still applies, and there's also NY SAFE act and its CA equivalent that prohibit pistol grips and other scary features.

And don't forget the new restrictions in New Jersey.(went from 15- to 10-rounds maximum per magazine).

[Flyingpig]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I like production for the 10 round capacity. The strategy challenges imposed by a limited capacity are the most emjoyable part.

 

Keep it the way it is.

 

Exactly. if you want to shoot full mags with 9mm shoot limited minor. i love the added dimension of 10 round mags as well.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, ATLDave said:

Only once or twice.  Not for 6+ stages.  

i disagree. I was a skeptic initially, but now I always try to squad with all the pcc guys. It takes them so long to shoot that we are always the last squad to finish, so all the teardown is done except the stage we finish on (for bonus points, plan to finish on a classifier or speedshoot with no walls or barrels).

 

[perttime]

3 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Have them (IPSC) adopt our 10-round limit and rules and they would be the same division. 

Why should it be the other way around?

 

IPSC already has a Division where you can get 10 rounds of 9mm: Classic.

 

As has been mentioned, USPSA Production is not anywhere near production guns, any more. I don't really see how the rules could be aligned.

[sixsixnine]

I spent a while shooting Production, but eventually made the switch to Limited because the state I live in doesn't infringe upon my magazines.

 

Every time I walked back through a stage I'd just shot, picking up 4 or 5 magazines like a breadcrumb trail, I couldn't help but think that it'd be cool if Production didn't have capacity restrictions.  That way, if you choose to fill the mags of your relatively unmodified gun to the brim, you're not forced into a division with people making major out of heavily modified 2011s.

 

Similarly to L-10, P-10 could also exist for states who hate freedom. 

[Brooke]

This incessant bs is really irritating. If you want 15 rounds or more enter Limited. Leave Production alone. It works like it is.

 

However nearly everyone eventually wants to tinker with their gun. As a result Production gun rules have become more liberal regarding gun mods. Same thing....if you want more freedom to tinker enter Limited. Why is this so freaking hard to understand?

 

The answer is simple. Nobody wants to shoot Limited minor because the major/ minor scoring is totally inequitable. If the useless Limited 10 Division was dropped, Limited major and Limited minor could become two separate divisions without creating more divisions. Problem is the powers that be don't really care.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

And just exactly why is it a good goal to emulate and get in line with the IPSC rulebook?

 

 

A complete divorce, and the resultant cost savings to USPSA always made sense to me. For the 1% or whatever that choose to participate in both sports they would be out a duplicate membership fee but I do not know of any other downside. 

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

A complete divorce, and the resultant cost savings to USPSA always made sense to me. For the 1% or whatever that choose to participate in both sports they would be out a duplicate membership fee but I do not know of any other downside. 

 

Having been on the BOD at the time all of this was taking place, I have a different perspective.

 

IDPA came about because USPSA was inflexible and not far sighted in discussions with those who later on founded IDPA. This created another shooting sport, which may not be bad, but also pulled shooters from USPSA. 

 

We we had information that if we pulled totally out of IPSC that another shooting sport would be created, call it IPSC USA, perhaps.

 

We were concerned this would further dilute our shooter base and not be healthy for our sport.

 

The solution was to do what we did. I would note any club can hold an IPSC match with their rules anytime they wish. Simply call it an IPSC match and carry on.

 

 

[HoMiE]

11 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

I would note any club can hold an IPSC match with their rules anytime they wish. Simply call it an IPSC match and carry on.

 

 

 

There is nothing stopping you from shooting IPSC gun with a race holster loaded to 15 rounds in limited. If there is enough interest in it why not just recognize it as another division. No need to change rule books just to shoot 5 more rounds. 

[Gary Stevens]

16 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

 

There is nothing stopping you from shooting IPSC gun with a race holster loaded to 15 rounds in limited. If there is enough interest in it why not just recognize it as another division. No need to change rule books just to shoot 5 more rounds. 

 

If it is a recognized USPSA division it must operate ate under our rulebook.

 

If here was this big cry for IPSC divisions, rules, and equipment you would see IPSC matches every weekend. People flocking to give their money to shoot. There doesn't seemto be much demand.