Guy shot himself during “make ready”.

[Dlister70]

I wasn’t there, but one of the local clubs had a guy with a negligent discharge while holstering with his finger on the trigger and he shot himself through the leg.

 

This has me spooked now to RO a new shooter.  I mean, you think you have control of the situation, but if the guy holsters quickly, you only have a split second to say stop if you see a finger in the guard.  I always holster really slow with my finger completely off the gun so the RO can see it.  But what if someone goes from taking a sight picture to holster really quick and you don’t have time to react?

 

Or what if you yell stop and that startles them into jerking the trigger?

 

I haven’t been ROing for very long, and it’s typically with guys that I’ve been shooting with for awhile who I know are safe, but this situation hits close to home and makes me want to pass off the timer if an unknown or new shooter comes up.

 

What would you do in this situation?  Yell stop?  Say stop in a softer and less jarring way?  Do you try to grab the guys arm to keep him pointed down range?  

 

 

 

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, Dlister70 said:

I wasn’t there, but one of the local clubs had a guy with a negligent discharge while holstering with his finger on the trigger and he shot himself through the leg.

 

This has me spooked now to RO a new shooter.  I mean, you think you have control of the situation, but if the guy holsters quickly, you only have a split second to say stop if you see a finger in the guard.  I always holster really slow with my finger completely off the gun so the RO can see it.  But what if someone goes from taking a sight picture to holster really quick and you don’t have time to react?

 

Or what if you yell stop and that startles them into jerking the trigger?

 

I haven’t been ROing for very long, and it’s typically with guys that I’ve been shooting with for awhile who I know are safe, but this situation hits close to home and makes me want to pass off the timer if an unknown or new shooter comes up.

 

What would you do in this situation?  Yell stop?  Say stop in a softer and less jarring way?  Do you try to grab the guys arm to keep him pointed down range?  

 

 

 

Never ever grab a shooters arm! That could make YOU the reason he shoots somebody.

  Not everybody is cut out to be an RO and if you have reservations you should just shoot. BUT, being an RO gives you a rare power. KEEPING PEOPLE SAFE. I for one can be tougher on new shooters than most. If I see a violation, their day is over. I don’t care if it’s their first match and I don’t care if they never come back. 

[racerba]

Sometimes it's just too quick to stop them...your only option is to react so they don't shoot you.  Sarge is correct, do not try to grab their arm.  But, you can block their arm if they are about to swing past the 180.  As an RO, you should be close enough to control the situation as best that you can.  it irks me to see RO standing 5 feet or more from the shooter when they can be closer.

[perttime]

How close you can - or should - be, depends on the stage too.

 

What's the hurry when Making Ready, or Unloading etc. anyway? It is not on the clock...

[SDL]

Also change sides to run a left handed shooter. I see this mistake with the RO on the wrong side. You need to see the holster and fingers.

[Dlister70]

I always stand at arms length at the start, and try to stay close as I can during the run.

 

I guess it just bothers me that there may be a situation that i can’t stop.  But if I’m aware of a new shooter, I always review what I expect them to do at each command.  That may have helped.  

 

I will certainly make it a point to tell new shooters to holster slowly.  No point in racing at that step.  Come out of the holster fast, sure, but put it back slow and safe.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Dlister70 said:

I always stand at arms length at the start, and try to stay close as I can during the run.

 

I guess it just bothers me that there may be a situation that i can’t stop.  But if I’m aware of a new shooter, I always review what I expect them to do at each command.  That may have helped.  

 

I will certainly make it a point to tell new shooters to holster slowly.  No point in racing at that step.  Come out of the holster fast, sure, but put it back slow and safe.

I hear your concern but you should not have to remind a shooter keep their finger off the trigger while holstering.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, Dlister70 said:

I wasn’t there, but one of the local clubs had a guy with a negligent discharge while holstering with his finger on the trigger and he shot himself through the leg.

 

 

Is the guy suing? Have not been able to verify but have been told there is a lawsuit ongoing for a similar situation. 

[ChuckS]

Did he get a reshoot?

[teros135]

What would a lawsuit be for?  Not making him remember to keep his finger out of the trigger guard?  

[quiller]

7 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Did he get a reshoot?

Yup, he put the holster on his weak side and shot the other leg! I know....that was evil.....but

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, perttime said:

How close you can - or should - be, depends on the stage too.

 

I've blocked a shooters arm as he was swinging around toward the squad (and been thanked for it) so I won't say it never happens that being close helps, as a general rule I think you are better off to control the shooter with your voice & give them ample room to react quickly and unexpectedly.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, teros135 said:

What would a lawsuit be for?  Not making him remember to keep his finger out of the trigger guard?  

 

Remember when McDonalds was sued successfully for selling hot coffee? 

 

 

[DukeEB]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Remember when McDonalds was sued successfully for selling hot coffee? 

 

 

It was a bit more than "hot" hot coffee suit

[perttime]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Remember when McDonalds was sued successfully for selling hot coffee? 

 

 

I believe it really was scalding hot in that case. Enough to cause severe burns to the nether regions of the plaintiff.

 

There was a case of a police officer suing Glock when he shot himself. He was installing a tactical light, or something, and the gun went off when he pulled the trigger...

[IHAVEGAS]

"She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap."

 

. . . . . . . .

 

This is why we can't have nice things. 

 

And "scalding hot" was never a surprising thing when you ordered hot coffee. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[DukeEB]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

"She had the cup between her knees while removing the lid to add cream and sugar when the cup tipped over and spilled the entire contents on her lap."

 

. . . . . . . .

 

This is why we can't have nice things. 

Not trying to hijack too much, but:

Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases.

 

• McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
• Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns in three to seven seconds.
• The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and biomechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation, the leading scholarly publication in the specialty.
• McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
• An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
• At least one juror later told the Wall Street Journal she thought the company wasn’t taking the injuries seriously. To the corporate restaurant giant those 700 injury cases caused by hot coffee seemed relatively rare compared to the millions of cups of coffee served. But, the juror noted, “there was a person behind every number and I don’t think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that.”
• McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
• McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

[IHAVEGAS]

"McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years"

 

Me too, this is why I never poured it on my pecker. 

[DukeEB]

It's like a DQ, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when 

[davsco]

it really is a good idea to go over the basics with any new shooters.  some clubs have a class or just a 15-30 minute safety and rules review for new shooters.  with or without that, still a good idea to prep and coach new shooters on the basics (holstering, drawing, 180, finger, etc).   at a recent 3 gun match we had a brand new guy break the 180 with a shottie while pulling it out of a barrel (had to run back uprange to grab it).  never came close to pointing it at anyone but broke the 180 rule and he was dq'd.  i feel if we had gone over some risks at the stage, this wouldn't have happened.

[ima45dv8]

Is this thread about ROing shooters, or ordering coffee?

 

 

[SoCalDep]

Here's my take, and I've stolen a lot of it from others who I can't remember, so I'm sorry, but credit goes to you... whoever you are...

 

Firearm manufacturers spend millions of dollars to make their products as ergonomic as possible.  This means it is absolutely natural to place your finger on the trigger.  If that is the case (and it is) then it is unnatural to keep your finger off the trigger.  Other than picking noses and pulling triggers, almost everything we do involves contracting all four fingers together.  Then, as instructors, range officers, range officials, line safety officers, etc., we expect that with a simple pre-match, class, session, etc., warning of "keep your finger off the trigger", people will simply follow that instruction with more ability than any other skill we'd teach. 

 

That is crap.

 

We need to make our instructions very clear.  We need to contribute to good habits by not only enforcing them, but encouraging and reminding them whenever possible.  This means that a "holster" command could easily include "with your finger straight on the frame, safely holster".  We also need to stress that trigger finger discipline is a skill that necessitates deliberate practice (ie: Slow deliberate holstering) as much as any other firearm manipulation skill. 

 

If we're doing nothing but a safety brief at the beginning, then we should also tell people they need to shoot a 2.5 second Bill Drill, and if they can't... just go home.

 

I'm not saying personal responsibility isn't important, or that safety shouldn't be "enforced"... It absolutely should, and violations, especially grievous violations should be dealt with firmly... but knowing the dynamics of how fingers go on triggers, we can do much more to prevent the issue with a little creative problem solving.

[quiller]

17 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Is this thread about ROing shooters, or ordering coffee?

 

 

If its about coffee my vote is for the Blackbird Cafe in Acton and/or Groton MA, or Union Coffee Roaster in Ayer MA. Okay, here's my only coffee joke. Did you know that Dunkin Donuts coffee is sustainable? Why you ask.....Well its quite simply, they only put one coffee bean in every pot so they will never run out of beans! I know, that was in poor taste....but so is Dunkin Donuts coffee...ha I did it again!

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, SoCalDep said:

We need to make our instructions very clear. 

 

"this is a USPSA (or whatever) match and not a firearms safety class, if you do not already know how to handle your gun safely then you should not shoot the match" .

Seems pretty clear. 

 

 

[kmanick]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

"this is a USPSA (or whatever) match and not a firearms safety class, if you do not already know how to handle your gun safely then you should not shoot the match" .

Seems pretty clear. 

 

 

^this , I just starting shooting USPSA 

I had previously taken a whole slew of 4 hour classes for conceal carry that involved drawing , mag changes, shooting while moving etc,

but I opted to take a 2 day USPSA "training class" at the club near me that  holds monthly matches.

They went over all of the rules 'extensively" on day one and the morning of day 2. the afternoon of day 2 we ran a couple of stages. You would've been amazed how many

people DQ'd while running those stage....even after having all of this stuff fresh in their minds. Fingers in the trigger guard was the number one reason. 

People get "too comfortable" and don't pay enough attention. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by kmanick