Sarge Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 38 minutes ago, RJH said: Haha, yet another ruling that goes against the plain English of the rule book. Oh well, I guess me and the rule book was wrong :-) It’s all there in plain English. There is no contradiction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, Sarge said: It’s all there in plain English. There is no contradiction The rule book says hammer fully decocked, the ruling says where a decocker drops it is ok. Many decockers drop the hammer to half cock, which is not fully decocked. How is that not a contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, RJH said: The rule book says hammer fully decocked, the ruling says where a decocker drops it is ok. Many decockers drop the hammer to half cock, which is not fully decocked. How is that not a contradiction? We are supposed to keep up with Rulings as Shooters and RO’s. Official rulings are just as official as the words written in the book itself. Besides it been in effect since 2014! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, Sarge said: We are supposed to keep up with Rulings as Shooters and RO’s. Official rulings are just as official as the words written in the book itself. Besides it been in effect since 2014! True, but it does still contradict the rule book, not really clarify. I had never noticed that "clarification," cause I assumed the rule book was clear enough on the subject. Like I said, I stand corrected. But hey, if you are going to let one gun go to halfcock might as well let them all. Before you know it aftermarket triggers, hammers and undercut frames will be legal too. Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Created: Mar 06, 2008 Effective: Jun 02, 2014 Rule: Appx D4 Spec Applies to: Pistol Ruling Authority:,John Amidon Status:Released Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Ruling: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) . Edited February 18, 2018 by OPENB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 The big difference everyone seems to miss is decocker guns that drop the hammer to somewhere others than fully decocked are all made specifically to work that way.This seems to come up all the time with CZs specifically. Most CZ shooters do not get the decocker model because it has a firing pin block and they do not want that as it affects getting the best trigger pull, they get the shadow models because they do not have one. So if your going to argue that all guns shoild be allowed to start at half cock you should probably understand despite looking similar the decocker models are different from a safety standpoint than shadow models.And for my tanfoglio shooting friends they should probably note that the decocker Tanfoglio's drop the hammer all the way so no half cock argument makes sense there either.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 OP, and how long have you been shooting USPSA? The most common mistake for newbies is trying to make sense out of the rules, or rationalize for their own specific platform. USPSA is not going to change any rule based on one single shooter...... Or even thousands of single shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliv2 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On 2/16/2018 at 4:10 PM, wtturn said: Seems pretty retarded to me, but your target demographic is Troy and the BoD, so you'll likely get your wish. You're my hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman195 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) I dont understand the complaint. Put the hammer all the way down on your gun or decock it to whatever the gun does. If you argue competitive advantage then your argument is going to be thrown out. Safety wise I've only ever seen someone fire a round once when decocking. It was me 4 years ago and I learned my lesson. Leave the rule how it is. Stop changing things that aren't broken. RJH adequately disputed every one in the second post on here. Edited February 20, 2018 by Dutchman195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threat Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) So the overall tone I'm getting is we just just accept the rules because "that is the way it is". Or "hasn't been a problem for me so deal with it" .Got it guys. I don't buy logical inconsistency in rules. The three reasons I've oringinally presented have not been refuted at the central point. These points still remain valid. 1. No reason to put hammers all the way down on guns with a half cock notch. 2. De-cocking a gun without having to hold the trigger down until the hammer contacts the FP is safer. 3. Would introduce consistency to hammer position of similar platform guns. Edited February 20, 2018 by threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 You still haven’t pointed out the problem you want to solve. How would your solution fix a problem? And what problem is that and how may unsafe actions would it fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 #1 - How does the half-cock position trigger pull compare to the fully down pull? I get the same pull from decock or fully down on a DA/SA Sig with a decocker, but I am unfamiliar with CZ/Tanfo. #2 - If you slip off the hammer while lowering to half-cock, do you really think you can remove your finger from the trigger fast enough to catch the half-cock notch? You may be marginally less likely to have an AD, but it's not like using a decocking lever vs having to pull the trigger at all. #3 is irrelevant since you are talking about a Division that mixes hammer-fired with striker-fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, threat said: These points still remain valid. 1. No reason to put hammers all the way down on guns with a half cock notch. 2. De-cocking a gun without having to hold the trigger down until the hammer contacts the FP is safer. 3. Would introduce consistency to hammer position of similar platform guns. #2 is purely your opinion. I see no difference in safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 ^^^ And neither does the NROI.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1. No reason to put hammers all the way down on guns with a half cock notch. 2. De-cocking a gun without having to hold the trigger down until the hammer contacts the FP is safer. 3. Would introduce consistency to hammer position of similar platform guns. #1: Yes there is. Pistols that de-cock to half cock generally have firing pin blocks. My P226 does, and the de-cocker CZs have firing pin blocks. The shadow series of CZs do not. Without a firing pin block, the gun can fire if the hammer falls from half cock. This can happen thru dropping the gun on the hammer.#2: When your hammer is all the way down, the firing pin is generally not long enough to reach the primer. If you drop your non-hammer block gun on the hammer it can't go Bang when it's flat against the frame.#3: I see no value in this. Buy a different gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 So the overall tone I'm getting is we just just accept the rules because "that is the way it is". Or "hasn't been a problem for me so deal with it" .Got it guys. I don't buy logical inconsistency in rules. The three reasons I've oringinally presented have not been refuted at the central point. These points still remain valid. 1. No reason to put hammers all the way down on guns with a half cock notch. 2. De-cocking a gun without having to hold the trigger down until the hammer contacts the FP is safer. 3. Would introduce consistency to hammer position of similar platform guns. Well I believe I refuted your point with facts quite well bit apparently feelings are more important than facts.Please show me a manufacturs manual that indicates that you Should manually lower the hammer to half cock, and I will consider changing my opinion Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 2/17/2018 at 12:55 AM, Rjracing said: I 100% agree with the OP here... trying to get a hammer all the way down on a gun without a decocker isn’t exactly the most safe thing to do. Will you cite me a case where a round was fired while doing this? If you want a decocker get your gun converted to that. Meanwhile try to quit suggesting solutions for problems that don't exist. There is no end to someone who wants a rule of their own. Make your gun a decocker and I'm sure you'll be the next Production National Champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I didn’t even see that. If you can’t lower the hammer shoot a striker gun. It’s not the guns fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Brooke said: Will you cite me a case where a round was fired while doing this? If you want a decocker get your gun converted to that. Meanwhile try to quit suggesting solutions for problems that don't exist. There is no end to someone who wants a rule of their own. Make your gun a decocker and I'm sure you'll be the next Production National Champion. Brooke, are you saying there hasn’t been a case of a hammer slipping and causing an AD? I have DQ’ed a few for this and I have witnessed it another 2-3 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjracing Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Brooke said: Will you cite me a case where a round was fired while doing this? If you want a decocker get your gun converted to that. Meanwhile try to quit suggesting solutions for problems that don't exist. There is no end to someone who wants a rule of their own. Make your gun a decocker and I'm sure you'll be the next Production National Champion. 1 hour ago, Sarge said: Brooke, are you saying there hasn’t been a case of a hammer slipping and causing an AD? I have DQ’ed a few for this and I have witnessed it another 2-3 times This ^. I've seen in it happen at a match before too and the guy was DQ'd, it is a potential safety hazard. We don't always get to play in the best of conditions and a wet/damp day is all it might take for an accident to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Rjracing said: This ^. I've seen in it happen at a match before too and the guy was DQ'd, it is a potential safety hazard. We don't always get to play in the best of conditions and a wet/damp day is all it might take for an accident to happen. How is it a potential safety hazard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Rjracing said: I've seen in it happen at a match before too and the guy was DQ'd, it is a potential safety hazard. We don't always get to play in the best of conditions and a wet/damp day is all it might take for an accident to happen. It's an additional thing a CZ shooter has to contend with, but you are facing downrange under direct supervision of the RO. It's no more of a safety hazard than AD'ing during ULSC. And it's less of a safety hazard than AD'ing while reloading on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjracing Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said: How is it a potential safety hazard? I consider fingers/hand behind the slide when the hammer slips and a round goes off a safety hazard too, no? Edited February 21, 2018 by Rjracing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Rjracing said: I consider fingers/hand behind the slide when the hammer slips and a round goes off a safety hazard too, no? Yes. Just like doing quick draws, running with a gun, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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