Shots not getting picked up.

[ChuckS]

20 hours ago, Neomet said:

Okay, there has to be a fix for this.  We are seeing a large increase in PCC shooters (yea) but with that an unacceptable level of runs where not a single shot registers on the timer or clearly the last sequence is not picked up. (The D class shooter who finishes dead last on every other stage but crushes the second best stage time on one).  This results in PCCers bringing twice the ammo so we can shoot everything twice, inaccurate results, and huge doubts about the validity of match results because of a general lack of confidence that the timer accurately picked up the last shot of your and your competitors' runs.  This has gotten bad enough that conscientious ROS are riding up on the backs of competitors in ways that require a marriage license in 13 states.  What I am looking for here is a technology fix, not the "train your ROs better " answer.   

 

Can this be done with turning the sensitivity of the chronos way up without ending up with extra time from the Open shooter in the next bay?  Selfie poles??  Directional mics on timers???  What if anything is working out there?  

I actually adjusted the sensitivity of my timer by turning it up until it picked up the open shooter in the next bay and then backed it off until it stopped counting their shots. This worked just fine for PCC. I have only used this with Pocket Pro (legacy and II) timers.

[BritinUSA]

If the timer uses a standard microphone socket then it should work. iPhone uses a four segment microphone socket, whereas most other applications use a 3 segment. I needed an adapter to use a Rode microphone on my iPad/iPhone.

[GeneBray]

Okay, there has to be a fix for this.  We are seeing a large increase in PCC shooters (yea) but with that an unacceptable level of runs where not a single shot registers on the timer or clearly the last sequence is not picked up. (The D class shooter who finishes dead last on every other stage but crushes the second best stage time on one).  This results in PCCers bringing twice the ammo so we can shoot everything twice, inaccurate results, and huge doubts about the validity of match results because of a general lack of confidence that the timer accurately picked up the last shot of your and your competitors' runs.  This has gotten bad enough that conscientious ROS are riding up on the backs of competitors in ways that require a marriage license in 13 states.  What I am looking for here is a technology fix, not the "train your ROs better " answer.   
 
Can this be done with turning the sensitivity of the chronos way up without ending up with extra time from the Open shooter in the next bay?  Selfie poles??  Directional mics on timers???  What if anything is working out there?  

IMO there several items to look at. 1) proper handling of timer and RO positioning. Mic uncovered and timer extended towards the firearm at end of stage. Check it is picking up shots right after buzzer. Note how close you have to be to shooter. 2) Timer sensitivity. Make it more sensitive. But not so much so you are getting adjacent berm shots or echoes. 3) be in the right spot with timer extended and mic completely uncovered BELOWDECKS the last shot is fired. Hold timer so you can see the last shot is "heard" by the timer or note time on next to last shot so you can tell the timer got the last one.

Timer sensitivity adjustments and proper RO techniques have virtually eliminated PCC reshoots in my neck of the woods. And, those ROs running PCCs for a while aren't missing last shot unless the sensitivity is turned back down. And, even if it has, about half the time you can still get it if you know your missing shots during the stage.


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[1911luvr]

If the timer uses a standard microphone socket then it should work. iPhone uses a four segment microphone socket, whereas most other applications use a 3 segment. I needed an adapter to use a Rode microphone on my iPad/iPhone.

IPhone and most other current phones use a 4-pole 3.5mm socket for stereo audio plus mic which requires a 4-pole TRRS plug (L/R/G/M). Microphone sockets generally are monaural (2-pole) or stereo (3-pole) inputs which is why you needed an adapter to short the bottom ring to the sleeve.


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[troupe]

I thought suppressors were a no go in PCC, and some guys are running such light loads, I don't see how the guns are even working.  Never thought that I would ever see a gun not be loud enough.

[Cuz]

Had the same problem at an action shotgun match recently. Had to practically climb on the shooters back to pick up their shots.


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[MemphisMechanic]

Personally whenever I am running a PCC shooter, I hold the timer so that I can see the screen.

 

Trying to stay near their right side, I'll lean in and rotate the microphone to face square at the ejection port for their last few shots.

 

Guns with comps on them or the Taccom ULW barrel (its 7.5" long inside of a permanent shroud) are much easier to pick up. Non-comped 16" guns are the ones your timer guys should know to on the lookout for.

Edited August 22, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[GeneBray]

I thought suppressors were a no go in PCC, and some guys are running such light loads, I don't see how the guns are even working.  Never thought that I would ever see a gun not be loud enough.

Suppressors are not compliant with rules. Appendix D8 11 Suppressors. No.


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[v1911]

My current .45 PCC sounds like a suppressed 9mm. So I'm getting a brake put on just to help the RO. I've had to reshoot 2 stages (indoor) so far. 

[Tampa-XD45]

3 hours ago, GeneBray said:

Suppressors are not compliant with rules. Appendix D8 11 Suppressors. No.


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Suppressors WILL be allowed for PCCO in steel matches unless the USPSA modifies the proposed rules changes.  (bad idea IMHO)  See appendix I4 from the "Steel Challenge" rules link on this page:  https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-announcements-details.php?Member-Comment-Wanted---MG-and-SCSA-Rules-318

 

ROs need to stop being lazy be more diligent.  It's not that difficult to

1. Adjust the timer sensitivity. (if you don't know how ... just ask another RO)
2. Hold the timer closer to the muzzle.

3. Keep the microphone side up.

4. As someone else mentioned, watch the screen timer increment with each shot.  Ask the score keeper to watch for hits (which they should be doing regardless)

5. If it's a steel match, check the shot count.  If someone shot a 5 shot string with only 4 recorded shots, it has to be a re-shoot.

 

You really need to pay attention to this when using the plastic timer covers during rainy matches.  The plastic definitely cuts down on the timer sensitivity.

I also ask the PCC shooter which way they're going to move so I can anticipate and be close enough to record shots.

 

Item #1 above cures most of the PCC shot recording problems.  Just be sure to reduce the sensitivity back to the normal setting for the non PCC shooters to avoid recording shot echos from adjacent courses.

 

[GeneBray]

Suppressors WILL be allowed for PCCO in steel matches unless the USPSA modifies the proposed rules changes.  (bad idea IMHO)  See appendix I4 from the "Steel Challenge" rules link on this page:  https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-announcements-details.php?Member-Comment-Wanted---MG-and-SCSA-Rules-318
 
ROs need to stop being lazy be more diligent.  It's not that difficult to
1. Adjust the timer sensitivity. (if you don't know how ... just ask another RO)
2. Hold the timer closer to the muzzle.
3. Keep the microphone side up.
4. As someone else mentioned, watch the screen timer increment with each shot.  Ask the score keeper to watch for hits (which they should be doing regardless)
5. If it's a steel match, check the shot count.  If someone shot a 5 shot string with only 4 recorded shots, it has to be a re-shoot.
 
You really need to pay attention to this when using the plastic timer covers during rainy matches.  The plastic definitely cuts down on the timer sensitivity.
I also ask the PCC shooter which way they're going to move so I can anticipate and be close enough to record shots.
 
Item #1 above cures most of the PCC shot recording problems.  Just be sure to reduce the sensitivity back to the normal setting for the non PCC shooters to avoid recording shot echos from adjacent courses.
 

Guess my mistake. Thought the discussion was about USPSA matches not Steel Challenge in the future. And, rereading the posts, I see the reference to suppressors I was referring to was in reference to outlaw matches.

Re 5. Reshoot only if the last shot was missed.


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[RevolverJockey]

For what it is worth, it seems like when I am running ~140 PF ammo, my gun is more likely to set off the timer suppressed than not. It certainly seems to have more pop at the ejection port from my prospective with the can on. I would be willing to shoot with the timer on my belt if that ended up being the solution.

Lee

[Patrick Scott]

Id say step one should be: MDs or other club officials should play with the sensitivity of the timers, just go play with them and figure out the best setting.

Step two: Inform ROs that we should take a little more care in making sure we get the last shot, PCC or not since it can happen if a pistol shooter outruns you. 

Step three: If steps one and two have been followed than tell the PCC folks need to make their gun louder or bring extra ammo for reshoots. PCC shooters are "guests" at USPSA matches, no need to make the host bend over backwards(buy special timers or mics, ect) to accommodate.

I know this isnt the answer the OP wanted, its just the way I see it. 
 

[Hawk21]

So because its a provisional division PCC shooters fall into a substandard category where they bear the responsibility for making sure the clubs equipment can accurately score a string?  We don't see eye to eye on that thought my friend.  PCC shooters pay match fees just like everyone else!

 

I shoot PCC because its a great entry into the USPSA world as no draw is required and it is much easier to be accurate out of a 16" Barrel vs 5" Pistol.  However, after seeing the "real shooters" and their limited guns run a stage it certainly makes me want to train to be at that level with a pistol sommme day.

 

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, Hawk21 said:

So because its a provisional division PCC shooters fall into a substandard category where they bear the responsibility for making sure the clubs equipment can accurately score a string?  We don't see eye to eye on that thought my friend.  PCC shooters pay match fees just like everyone else!

 

I shoot PCC because its a great entry into the USPSA world as no draw is required and it is much easier to be accurate out of a 16" Barrel vs 5" Pistol.  However, after seeing the "real shooters" and their limited guns run a stage it certainly makes me want to train to be at that level with a pistol sommme day.

 

 

 

PCC was "sold" to the membership on the basis that matches wouldn't have to change to accommodate PCC.  If new tech has to be bought I would call that a fail in this case. 

[ChuckS]

Just now, Patrick Scott said:

PCC was "sold" to the membership on the basis that matches wouldn't have to change to accommodate PCC.  If new tech has to be bought I would call that a fail in this case. 

My PocketPro timer that I bought from Denny's Shooters Supply some time around Y2K has no problem picking up PCC shots (all of  them, not just the last). You are going to have to find a new rock to throw at the "guests".

[Hawk21]

Patrick I have also seen a fair share of RFRI and RFRO not get picked in steel challenge and that is a division that has been around for awhile.  Probably goes back to same statement from earlier of ROs being in the proper position not necessarily adding equipment.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hawk21

[Patrick Scott]

No throwing rocks brothers. I was speaking from my point of veiw as a MD , RO, and club B.O.D. member.  My other point of view is that I myself am a PCC shooter and you could say was a big proponent of it and helped bring(some might say pushed) it to my club. I have intentionally made my gun as loud as possible without sacrificing performance to reduce the possibility of timer issues. I have been on both sides of timer and I have been "beaten" on a stage or two where video clearly shows a time discrepancy. 

[Neomet]

Not being snippy here at all but if 4 $69 shotgun mikes solves the issue for our club I will pay for them myself.  I do think stage designs which do not have the shooter finishing up against a barricade/barrels/wall/moat of alligators on the right helps a whole lot.   For the rest of the course I just don't think you can say you need the RO piggybacking the competitor.  I am 62 and nobody is going to mistake me for Usain Bolt holding a timer so when one of the young bucks starts to sprint uprange for the next array of targets I am either leaving way before they do or I get run over.  No bueno.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by Neomet

[ought6301]

Airsoft timers

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[Tampa-XD45]

13 hours ago, Hawk21 said:

Patrick I have also seen a fair share of RFRI and RFRO not get picked in steel challenge and that is a division that has been around for awhile.  Probably goes back to same statement from earlier of ROs being in the proper position not necessarily adding equipment.

Hawk21 is absolutely correct about rimfire in steel matches and that's exactly why me and my buddies stopped shooting rimfire.  ROs were not taking the necessary steps to pick up all shots thus making the match unfair to the squads who RO correctly.  

 

Neomet brings up an interesting option with a shotgun mike.  I would prefer not to have the RO attached to me while running since it greatly increases the chance for a collision.  I've never encountered a problem recording shots when the timer sensitivity was increased.  It takes all of 10 seconds to change the setting.

[barrysuperhawk]

I run 2 PCC's, a Bazooka AR45, and an ATI 9mm.    The 9mm wears the $19 ebay muzzle brake that I saw discussed on here, and since I put it on, no problem, plenty of souund for normally calibrated timers.  The .45 is an odd thread (olympic .45 upper, 5/8-24 NOT 5/8-36) and I have never found a .45 brake for it so it still has a standardish FH and I average about 1 out of 5 stage reshoots, and stand and deliver classifiers don't matter.

[AWLAZS]

When PCC was introduced to USPSA we were told it would not change the way we were running matches. A pistol shooter would not even notice the PCCs at the match.   I think it's crazy to expect ro's to stop and adjust the timer settings between shooters.  I have messed with my own timer and get echo's  when I start adjusting the sensitivity up. I wouldn't expect ro's to have to run a pcc shooter differently than any other competitor. An ro is supposed to be watching the shooter not looking at the timer to see if its catching all the shots.  A PCC shooter comes to a match knowing it's a timed event. They should make sure their equipment is going to work. You need your gun to run well so you can get through a stage without problems. To me, if you down load your gun so it sounds suppressed and you get stuck reshooting it's on the shooter.

 

The idea of having to stop and mic up the PCC shooter is ridiculous. You are now putting the official time keeping device into the hands of the competitor.  

[littlefish]

I have never seen or had a PCC reshoot for lack of timer shot(s) pick up. I'm sure it happens, just never seen one. I don't have a comp/brake either. 

[RevolverJockey]

Also not everyone has a barrel that can accept a brake - mine for example has a 3 lug adapter ground directly into the barrel. I know it isn't the magical solution everyone is hoping to hear, but when I have shot informal steel matches suppressed, both rimfire and 9mm, I take my timer to the match setup so it picks up my time. I just have the RO run me with my timer.

Lee

Edited August 23, 2017 by RevolverJockey