TRUBL Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 From what I am seeing....they talk about 4x4 plates at 10-15yards........and then i hear no plates smaller than 6", the video that Judy Marie just posted shows lots of big steel. Don't care.....love a mix of steel and paper. Gonna be a great match......lots of time and prep going into it. On the scoring......yeah, total time plus is not one of my fav's but I adapt and shoot it with no issues. I do believe that PCC match should be scored HF, as it is only one gun and HF is made for one gun (by design in the beginning). The added benefit of HF is that it allows for small speed shoots and HUGE field courses.....the scoring automatically weighs out each stage for scoring. With one gun and with the mix of steel and paper......HF scoring is very fast to score.....any time difference in scoring would be negligible. Time plus, I do not think promotes sloppy shooting.......you still have to hit a target to score and with all the steel in this match, it's gonna be far from sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM2B Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Great balance of fast and challenging stages. Great entertainment after hours, awesome food, and amazing prize table!!! First class RO's!!!! Definitely worth the travels! Looking forward to next year!!! Thank you for the AWESOME Match! Quite the feat for an inaugural match!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Max Leograndis got DQed? Ouch. :-( Anyone know what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahamoti Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Neomet said: Max Leograndis got DQed? Ouch. :-( Anyone know what happened? Something about his rifle doubling, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Well, that is no bueno.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahamoti Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Neomet said: Well, that is no bueno.... I imagine there will be some conversations had about the difference between burst and intentional bump fire. That call seemed sketchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Did he get off a 3 round bump fire and get called for his gun doubling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahamoti Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 28 minutes ago, MHitchcock said: Did he get off a 3 round bump fire and get called for his gun doubling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Campbell Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Nothing in the rules about DQ for that at most . 4.1 All firearms used by participants must be serviceable and safe. Event Officials may inspect a participant’s firearms at any time to check they are functioning safely. If a firearm is declared unserviceable or unsafe by an Event Official, it must be withdrawn from the event until it is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master. RM had the ability to make up rules as necessary , maybe this was one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Some f*#kery seems to be afoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Why would it be a DQ anyways? Burst Fire is pretty common, has happened to many of us with these PCC's. I can see the PCC being judged as broken and needing repair or going to a back up with the stage scored as shot to the point where it happened and penalties for targets not engaged from that point on. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I would be extremely surprised to find out that his gun was actually doubling, but we'll never really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomicferret Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 So why would he not be allowed to change guns and continue the match with a "properly functioning" rifle? It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be better than not shooting at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliearms Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I was curious if this was a topic of conversation on here. It has turned into a nightmare on Facebook. I was not there and can only give you information based on seeing the video and talking to several parties. I know the RM very well along with several of the big named guys who were at the match. The DQ was handed down because they notified him multiple times on multiple stages that his gun was bursting (from what I was told). I heard the video. It was a burst. He had 24 hours to correct the problem. He didn't. The next day, same issue. Gun was taken to be looked at and they could replicate the issue with adjusting trigger control. It dumped a mag full auto. Of course there are two sides to every story but that pretty much sums it up. Most of the guys there agreed from what I have heard but the rest of the community, not so much. I guess the kid has a cult following because people get DQ'd all the time at matches and it doesn't cause controversy. I would say all of the top shooters there were 3 gun guys and I expected most of them would be. The guy who did the DQ is a very well known shooter, is one of the top 3 gunners and has MD'd more matches than most folks have shot. I trust his word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I keep seeing very interesting reasons as to why this has blown up. "Cult following" is a new one. Maybe... Just maybe... Some messed up stuff happened. And maybe people like to gawk at car wrecks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Thank you for adding info. I just heard about it today and watched the video. From what I have seen on here I don't think its an issue of a cult following (at least on here, but I don't have Facebook). It has to do with what makes an unsafe PCC. That shooter has been using controlled bump fire for a while now and openly admits it. So the question is, if I can bump fire my PCC by adjusting my hold and letting shortened bolt travel, higher PF ammo, and "adjusted trigger control" do the work, does that make the gun unsafe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, MHitchcock said: Thank you for adding info. I just heard about it today and watched the video. From what I have seen on here I don't think its an issue of a cult following (at least on here, but I don't have Facebook). It has to do with what makes an unsafe PCC. That shooter has been using controlled bump fire for a while now and openly admits it. So the question is, if I can bump fire my PCC by adjusting my hold and letting shortened bolt travel, higher PF ammo, and "adjusted trigger control" do the work, does that make the gun unsafe? It does not. It makes you really fast at PULLING the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliearms Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=483309048703367&id=394052347629038&fref=gc&dti=1058615810861279&hc_location=ufi 3 minute mark. I have been around shooting sports for years. I have shot with some of the best there is. To me, this was a burst. In a USPSA match, if this would have happened with an open gun, it would have had the same result. I don't know how else to put it. Unfortunately, now there is a target on you and every match you go to you will be subject to review. Whatever it is, if it is mechanical, I would fix it. If you really are that fast with a PCC ( which boarders on full auto fast) then God bless you as you have a long career ahead of you. I do mostly Steel Challenge and can pull a trigger pretty quick as do many of the top shooters in the sport but I have never heard anyone that can pull one that fast. JM included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) To me that looks like controlled bump fire....you notice how it NEVER happens on steel? It is controlled. He is using the recoil and hold to have the recoil run the trigger. You can bump fire without a bump fire stock on a bone stock cheap AR, it is even easier on a high bolt velocity, high PF ammo, flat tracking blow back PCC. Again, this comes down to the question: Is a PCC unsafe if I can create a condition where it will bump fire by purposely not holding it normally/inducing a bumpfire. Because I'd be willing to bet that you can MAKE most blowback PCC's bumpfire. From what I gather, his tuning of his rifle aids in making that happen- very short bolt travel, high PF ammo etc. Because a match official can create a condition where he can mag dump the gun (keep in mind he is pressing the trigger every time a bullet goes off) does not in my mind make it an unsafe weapon. If on the other hand, it was an actual mechanical malfunction of the trigger that is a different story all together. 2 hours ago, wyliearms said: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=483309048703367&id=394052347629038&fref=gc&dti=1058615810861279&hc_location=ufi 3 minute mark. I have been around shooting sports for years. I have shot with some of the best there is. To me, this was a burst. In a USPSA match, if this would have happened with an open gun, it would have had the same result. I don't know how else to put it. Unfortunately, now there is a target on you and every match you go to you will be subject to review. Whatever it is, if it is mechanical, I would fix it. If you really are that fast with a PCC ( which boarders on full auto fast) then God bless you as you have a long career ahead of you. I do mostly Steel Challenge and can pull a trigger pretty quick as do many of the top shooters in the sport but I have never heard anyone that can pull one that fast. JM included. ***as for rules - there is nothing I have seen in the rule book that would prevent bump firing. The reason an open gun would be DQ'd is because the trigger is mechanically doubling when this happens. In this case the trigger is working as intended - one shot, one trigger press - and the operator is manipulating the weapon in a way that the recoil helps attain faster splits. Easy way to solve this for next years match is specify that bump firing isn't allowed. However, as I see this currently, the rifle is not malfunctioning*** Edited September 5, 2017 by MHitchcock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahamoti Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) > It was a burst. No it wasn't. > He had 24 hours to correct the problem. He didn't. The next day, same issue. There was no rule about warnings, or about bumpfire. They let him shoot the rest of day 1, after the warning. If the gun was deemed unsafe, why do that? Why DQ him the next day for something they allowed to continue the 2nd half of day 1? It was handled horribly, *even if it was the right call*. > Gun was taken to be looked at and they could replicate the issue with adjusting trigger control. "Adjusting trigger control." Oh, you mean bumpfire. > It dumped a mag full auto. No it didn't. Edited September 6, 2017 by mahamoti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) Retracted. Edited September 6, 2017 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamge Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 This is going to be super challenging to enforce a ban on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phong Nguyen Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 I see nothing unsafe about that video. Bad call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 9 hours ago, Phong Nguyen said: I see nothing unsafe about that video. Bad call. I don't see a call made there. Was it done after that run or on another stage? The RO didn't stop him. I still don't see a DQ unless something was said or done that NONE of us are privy to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, Sarge said: I don't see a call made there. Was it done after that run or on another stage? The RO didn't stop him. I still don't see a DQ unless something was said or done that NONE of us are privy to. I found it on one of the other stage videos. He finishes a run. 30-45 seconds later someone (I'm assuming the RM) comes and takes his rifle out of his hands and asks him to bring ammo and meet him in the test bay. Then later in the same video you see him sitting with his rifle in golf cart (or whatever you want to call it) and the camera person asks him what happened. He states he was DQ'd and the RM supposedly got the gun to double and that he didn't want to say anything more about the situation on Facebook live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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