30+ rds shotgun stage - Is this necessary in 3-Gun match?

[ziebart]

Vespid, if you want stages where people will time out that is easy. I can just lower the max time. Say no more than 100 seconds instead of 200.

 

 

MGM Ironman had timeouts at 500 seconds. I don'tknow of any other match that did that and still had people time out. Most of those that timed out went to war with long range, slug spinners, or had gear malfunctions, and refused loaner equipment. 

[kellyn]

I, for one, despise the high round count shotgun stage.  Of course, I generally don't care for  the use of all 3 guns on a stages either.

 

I understand Kurt's comments on the combative roots of the shotgun but I'm more willing to stretch the use of shotguns in 3 gun to include use of aerial targets i.e. tactical sporting clays.  I think the sport should include the use of aerial targets to test our abilities to really manage these weapon systems  plus as far as I'm concerned that's what shotguns are for: birds! But I still loathe stages which simply go way outside the lane of the practical roots of this sport.  Requiring shooters to carry around 1-2 boxes of shotgun ammo on uber-specialized carrying systems which have no place other than a 3 gun match (in divisions that we  call "Tactical" or "Limited") seems silly to me.  Loading the shotgun is an important skill but we've got to the point where we are testing shotgun loading more than shotgun shooting and using completely unrealistic gear in the process.   

 

I would keep shotgun stages at a MAXIMUM of 20 rounds. 

 

 

[TonytheTiger]

29 minutes ago, kellyn said:

  Of course, I generally don't care for  the use of all 3 guns on a stages either.

 

 

Say what? You may be in the wrong sport sir. Any stage I see that only requires 2 guns is a letdown.

[dmshozer1]

On 7/17/2017 at 11:33 AM, Maximis228 said:

Open shotguns can hold more and more as the years go on. There are lots of caddy companies now. Gear tends to drive a lot of changes in 3 gun. At least that's what it seems.

 

Target types are the same way. More carnival type target arrays continue to be invented.

 

How are larger stages harder on RO's The initial set up is a bit more intensive but its still the competitors who are doing the reset.

 

You want to see changes, become a match director and put on your own match. People will spend money on the stuff they like to do. Almost all 3 gun majors sell out right now. I don't see the increased difficultly slowing down anytime soon.

The RO on a big stage with lots of movement has to run with each shooter. Try doing that 100 times or more!

Add in the load and make ready for staging three guns. Add in the clearing of three guns. Add in scoring the targets.

Add in dealing with scoring issues. Add in dealing with the whiners.

See if it tires you out.

[Maximis228]

4 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

The RO on a big stage with lots of movement has to run with each shooter. Try doing that 100 times or more!

Add in the load and make ready for staging three guns. Add in the clearing of three guns. Add in scoring the targets.

Add in dealing with scoring issues. Add in dealing with the whiners.

See if it tires you out.

 

I Ro all the time. I do exactly what you speak of. No issues. And im a Fat f*#k. Just ask Tony Le Tigre.

[dmshozer1]

Just now, Maximis228 said:

 

I Ro all the time. I do exactly what you speak of. No issues. And im a Fat f*#k. Just ask Tony Le Tigre.

Ask most RO's at the end of the day if they are beat after running a monster stage.

I would bet that they will say yes.

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

 

And im a Fat f*#k. Just ask Tony Le Tigre.

Stylishly cushioned...

[Maximis228]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

Stylishly cushioned...

 

[Steve RA]

Seems like a little too much shotgun, but that may be just me.

[kellyn]

22 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Say what? You may be in the wrong sport sir. Any stage I see that only requires 2 guns is a letdown.

Don't think I'm in the wrong sport since I've been doing it for 19 years now.  Stages requiring 3 guns never make logical sense.  But we long since abandoned logic in stage design.  To (poorly) quote Kurt Miller "3 gun lost its way when stages were no longer scenario based."  But now we live in a world where I shoot slugs out of a shotgun at 100 yard targets when I have a rifle on my back, where I toss my rifle or shotgun into a barrel because I'm told to toss my rifle/shotgun into a barrel, where I load 10 rounds into my shotgun to shoot steel targets when I have a loaded pistol on my hip.  Some people (the majority?) obviously like the constant transitioning between guns and tossing them all around the range, I've never cared for it.

 

Not to say I'm not good at it............ 

 

   

[TonytheTiger]

Our difference of opinion is probably just because when I started 3 years ago it was commonly accepted that 3 gun was a game with little to no combat or practical influence. Each to his ownI guess, I've never known it any other way so it doesn't bother me. 

I've talked to a few Mil/LEO guys that tried 3 gun once and they take it a step further than just objecting to the impractical nature of 3 gun. They all insist that the shotgun has no reason to exist outside of bird hunting, therefore 3 gun is stupid. Then they mutter something about how unrealistic it is that they just got smoked by some skinny accountant and walk away.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

 3 gun was a game with little to no combat or practical influence.  

 

Unless someone is shooting back at you, in low light situation, and they're moving

fast, and they ARE THE BUZZER, none of these games we play have "combat

or practical influence".    

 

BUT, they're all fun, and they do teach us an awful lot about shooting and reloading     

[davsco]

since we're OT now, i must admit it's kinda nice to hit a pistol-only match (ie uspsa).  one gun, a couple of mags, 3 boxes of ammo and you're GTG.  then 2 gun (AR and pistol) adds some extra logistics and complexity (and fun).  and then 3 gun adds exponential complexity and logistics (different chokes, different ammo types, a bunch of real estate taken up on your belt for caddies, preloading at each stage, etc).  but it's all fun and good practice.  good to know how your gear (and you) work under a little pressure should a HD or SD situation arise.

[Woodsk]

I have no interest in how 3-gun relates to combat. if I did I would still be in the Army. besides shotguns have no real place in "combat" anyway 

[Ming the Merciless]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 10:10 PM, kurtm said:

I think that the reason we have these kind of stages is that way too many match directors have "lost their way"..…...

 

In my opinion there is no place in this sport, which has martial roots, for flying, flipping, spinning, whirlygigging CRAP that has taken place of thoughtful stage design that tests the combat use of a shotgun! It is just one of the reasons I don't even attend a match I was instrumental in creating anymore!!!

 

 

That may have been true about the martial roots of combat shotgun, but the martial aspects have changed with the advent of the use of small reconnaissance drones.  The shotgun is the perfect weapon for dealing with the droves of them that will be used on the battlefields of today.  Droves I say!  Dozens and dozens!

 

OKAY, I kid....sort of.  However I do think there is enough room and shooters for both kinds of matches to flourish.  I love the high round count carnival matches and while I don't love the harder combat type of matches I do enjoy them occasionally, so I think there is plenty of opportunity for both types of matches.

[Stlhead]

If all the worlds problems where as easy to fix as the too many shotgun round stage at xyz multigun match what a day!  If you do not like the stage don't shoot it, or better yet don't go to the match, or even better yet, bitch about it on the internet.  If it where not for trivial arguments like this there would be so much less entertain,ent in the wold.  Now how do I get that drone tag?

[kellyn]

Huh?  I thought the topic was a discussion as to whether 3 gun should have such stages not "if you don't like it, don't show up."  Great attitude there. 

 

Whether our not 3 gun should recognize its "martial roots" is an absolutely legitimate topic.  I respect both sides of the debate.  I'm not totally committed to the "combat application of the shooting" as I like sporting clays/aerial targets but I'm also not on the side of "let's have a 35 round stage just to see who loads the fastest" crew either.  

 

If 3 gun continues to specialize to the point where shooters need $500 worth of shot shell holders to hold 50 rds. of shotshells on their body, it will become more and more esoteric. I don't want the sport to go down that path but that's probably where it's headed: more specialized and less welcoming. 

      

[StealthyBlagga]

I am with Kelly and Kurt. Although a lot of action shooters (whether 3-gunners, USPSA or whatever) see the sport purely as a game, we should all at least RESPECT the martial origins. The original purpose of the sports - to increase combat survivability by improving gun handling skills and equipment - is as relevant today as it ever was. Look at the innovations that come straight out of what we do: robust red dot optics, the modified isosceles, low-power variable scopes, techniques for shooting on the move etc. etc. These are things that most competitors are very unlikely ever to need "for reals" (though they are sure comforting to have), but what we do has wider societal benefits that we should not dismiss lightly. To some extent we have a duty to preserve the relevance of the sport for future generations lest we follow the path of other shooting sports that have lost their way... the Winter Olympics sport of biathlon is a good example of how a shooting sport can change (not for the better IMHO) if care is not taken to preserve relevance.

 

Concerning the specific question raised, I think it is fair to say that the shotgun is much less combat-relevant today than it was when 3-Gun was conceived. Other than breaching, guarding prisoners and maybe killing drones, it is a dinosaur. Concurrent with its decline in the hands of warfighters and lawmen, the 3-Gun shotgun and its supporting equipment has become so specialized as to be useful for nothing else. This is a direct result of the stages we present; the almost exclusive use of birdshot (we rarely see buckshot stages anymore), the emphasis of loading skills over shooting skills, the ultra-specialized equipment etc.  Frankly, the combination of combat-irrelevance and "the new normal" of modern competition means that we are probably never going to get this particular genie back in the bottle.

 

When designing stages, I try to balance the sometimes-conflicting demands of my customer base. Some folks love the high round count shotgun stages, others find it frustrating that they need to put so much energy into loading practice just to keep up. The key for me is to ensure the match is balanced - I don't ever want the outcome of the match to be decided by shotgun loading skill. For this reason, really high round count shotgun stages are rare in my matches - maybe 1 in 10 of my stages involving shotgun will have a count higher than 20.

 

I would also say that, as a Match Director, a substantial part of the growth I see right now is from folks who want to develop skill at arms and have a good time, but have no interest in the shotgun. We recently started recognizing 2-Gun divisions at our 3-Gun matches. The equipment rules are essentially the same, but folks use a handgun in place of the shotgun, and of course the divisions are scored separately. For each stage we build, we have TWO written stage briefings; one for the 3-Gun divisions and one for the 2-Gun divisions. With a little bit of thought, this can be done without in any way degrading the experience for committed 3-gunners, plus it engages the huge and untapped "AR + Glock" demographic. These new 2-Gun divisions have been tremendously successful, even with seasoned 3-gunners who are tired of the shotgun loading game, and perhaps this trend hints at the direction multigun may be going.

Edited August 13, 2017 by StealthyBlagga

[HRider]

I'll throw my two cents in. I highly respect Kurt and Kelly's views. I also do not like a high round count hosefest/loadfest. I only get to shoot a few major matches per year and do like a high round count long jungle run or natural terrain shotgun stage. I also like having no shoot plates that make the shots more challenging, or shooting out of a moving vehicle (or even a stationary vehicle). I believe that these things can be incorporated into stage design to keep with traditional martial use as well as promote better firearm skill without necessarily driving the invention of a backpack magazine, belt fed shotgun.

Hurley

[PacMan]

18 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

...

 

Concerning the specific question raised, I think it is fair to say that the shotgun is much less combat-relevant today than it was when 3-Gun was conceived. Other than breaching, guarding prisoners and maybe killing drones, it is a dinosaur. Concurrent with its decline in the hands of warfighters and lawmen, the 3-Gun shotgun and its supporting equipment has become so specialized as to be useful for nothing else. This is a direct result of the stages we present; the almost exclusive use of birdshot (we rarely see buckshot stages anymore), the emphasis of loading skills over shooting skills, the ultra-specialized equipment etc.  Frankly, the combination of combat-irrelevance and "the new normal" of modern competition means that we are probably never going to get this particular genie back in the bottle.

 

When designing stages, I try to balance the sometimes-conflicting demands of my customer base. Some folks love the high round count shotgun stages, others find it frustrating that they need to put so much energy into loading practice just to keep up. The key for me is to ensure the match is balanced - I don't ever want the outcome of the match to be decided by shotgun loading skill. For this reason, really high round count shotgun stages are rare in my matches - maybe 1 in 10 of my stages involving shotgun will have a count higher than 20.

 

I would also say that, as a Match Director, a substantial part of the growth I see right now is from folks who want to develop skill at arms and have a good time, but have no interest in the shotgun. We recently started recognizing 2-Gun divisions at our 3-Gun matches. The equipment rules are essentially the same, but folks use a handgun in place of the shotgun, and of course the divisions are scored separately. For each stage we build, we have TWO written stage briefings; one for the 3-Gun divisions and one for the 2-Gun divisions. With a little bit of thought, this can be done without in any way degrading the experience for committed 3-gunners, plus it engages the huge and untapped "AR + Glock" demographic. These new 2-Gun divisions have been tremendously successful, even with seasoned 3-gunners who are tired of the shotgun loading game, and perhaps this trend hints at the direction multigun may be going.

 

I would love to see the re-application of 00 buckshots in shotgunning. The challenge of getting 8-9 pellets on the target without hitting No Shoot targets is what it is all about, IMO. (I can hear "flite control" coming )

 

I was wondering how you can run a 2 gun division in a 3 gun match, and there it is.  It also means no flying birds, no moving clays (as in wig wags).  

Edited August 14, 2017 by PacMan

[StealthyBlagga]

7 hours ago, PacMan said:

I was wondering how you can run a 2 gun division in a 3 gun match, and there it is.  It also means no flying birds, no moving clays (as in wig wags).  

 

Not necessarily. We do still use clays in moderation, but the 2-Gun WSB simply omits listing them as an available target... when setting the stage, we do not set the clay targets (statics, movers or launchers), so the 2-gunners have a couple fewer shots. Another option is to present alternate targets (e.g. ringing plates that are color-coded to distinguish them - not as confusing as you might think). Neither approach presents a competitive equity problem as the divisions compete separately.

Edited August 14, 2017 by StealthyBlagga

[1chota]

2 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Not necessarily. We do still use clays in moderation, but the 2-Gun WSB simply omits listing them as an available target... when setting the stage, we do not set the clay targets (statics, movers or launchers), so the 2-gunners have a couple fewer shots. Another option is to present alternate targets (e.g. ringing plates that are color-coded to distinguish them - not as confusing as you might think). Neither approach presents a competitive equity problem as the divisions compete separately.

I have seen the color choice targets (for want of a better name) and like the set up.  there are an equal number of different color targets so as to keep it equal.  makes the shooter think. 

[toothandnail]

I love high round count SG stages, and there will always be, a high round count, SG only, stage at our matches. Also will have many of the "carnival" moving props, only shooting static steel is easy and gets boring.

Come to our match you will be challenged to your limits, or close to, on all 3 guns.

We also shoot rifles as they should be - from 7 yds out to 600 yds.

Pistol - targets from 4" , 6", 8", death star, drop turn, texas star, B/C zone at 50+ yds

SG similar targets to pistol, adding flying clays, slugs, buck shot.

We also have some physical aspect on many stages.

I can't stand matches with, stand in box A shoot 6, move to box B, shoot 4, move to box C shoot 6, mandatory reload between each box.

We have designed targets  to speed reset and make it easy on the shooters resetting.

We design stages to be reset while the shooter is moving forward for the most part.

 

 

[Woodsk]

7 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

I love high round count SG stages, and there will always be, a high round count, SG only, stage at our matches. Also will have many of the "carnival" moving props, only shooting static steel is easy and gets boring.

Come to our match you will be challenged to your limits, or close to, on all 3 guns.

We also shoot rifles as they should be - from 7 yds out to 600 yds.

Pistol - targets from 4" , 6", 8", death star, drop turn, texas star, B/C zone at 50+ yds

SG similar targets to pistol, adding flying clays, slugs, buck shot.

We also have some physical aspect on many stages.

I can't stand matches with, stand in box A shoot 6, move to box B, shoot 4, move to box C shoot 6, mandatory reload between each box.

We have designed targets  to speed reset and make it easy on the shooters resetting.

We design stages to be reset while the shooter is moving forward for the most part.

 

 

 

Sounds like a great match!

And I completely agree with the Bold