What Would You Do?

[rtr]

I hesitated to post this, however I'd like the input of the minds here.

I do not post it as an insult, or attack on any of the other parties involved, especially the RO.

At a club match today I was the only person pasting targets for some reason after a particular shooter. The last target was about 25 yards away from the start position, as I was walking back to the line the shooter who was now up pulled his gun from his holster. He was immediately admonished by the RO and put it back in his holster. (The RO had not given him instructions to LAMR or unholster his gun) He did not point it at me, I was about 10 yards to his side and 10 yards or so in front of him.

The RO then explained to the shooter something to the effect of what he had just done is usually a match DQ. The RO then ran the shooter as normal. After the shooter had finished the I overheard the RO talking to him and he said something to the effect of "I should have DQ'ed you, I'm not going to now, but I should have".

The shooter in question here seemed pretty new, although he must have shot some matches because he had a full race rig including a limited 2011 pistol.

The RO is an experienced shooter and good RO, ironically at a steel match last year (not a USPSA match) I dropped my loaded open gun out of my holster, and he said to me something to the effect of that should be a DQ but I'm not going to DQ you.

Now I don't want any comments about this RO, I DO want comments about what you would do if you were in my shoes in this situation.

I did nothing, because I don't want to be the guy that sends a new shooter home forever and what was done was done. I didn't want to say anything to the RO because I'm not a certified RO and am less experienced in practical shooting than him.

So what would you do in this situation?

[stingerjg]

you could bring it to the attn of the Match Director, that someone committed a obvious DQ'able offense and the RO failed to take appropriate action.

[mike.45]

I think reporting the RO and the shooter to the MD would be way harsh - the RO made a judgement call on what he deemed would be a misdermeanor DQ as compared to a full blown "STOP !!!!" The RO obviously knows the rules, he knows his options and he knows discresion is an available option to him - it sounds like he also knew that the shooter was new and had made a minor mistake - there was no danger posed, the gun didnt point at anyone and wasnt loaded - words of advice and the rules infringments pointed out, the shooter learns, and his whole weekend isnt ruined - sounds like a smart and decent RO to me.

RTR sounds like he treated you with the same respect and dignity when you had a slight mishap (which I admit sounds a bit more serious than the one you witnessed) - of course you could always have DQ'ed yourself and just packed up and gone home even though he gave you the benefit of the call.

[standles]

I think it worked al around. Someone being downrange during this incident in my books makes it a little bit more than a misdemeanor DQ. but as another said whats done is done.

I would most likely talk to the RO next time I saw him and explain that you would like a liitle more dilegence when someone is downrange. Our club doesn't allow anyone to approach the start position until range clear.

FOR NEW SHOOTER ( and old)

I make it a habit when I a told to step forward to the line to:

At the load an make ready command I visually check downrange and the 180 line to verify for myself that the range is clear. Then I proceed with the RO's instructions. Two people verifying are better than one. Don't be an automaton on auto pilot.

Steven

[eerw]

I was on the same squad as RTR..the stage had a start where an empty gun was placed about two steps from the start postion was on the other side of a wall with the shooter grasping the bars of two swinging saloon doors. The CRO was positioned at the start position when the shooter stepped through and pulled out his gun...no LAMR command was given..

RTR was almost uprange but still on the downrange side of the wall..

the shooter, I believe is newer..but nonetheless..he seemed a bit high strung as on other stages he would gripe about waiting or not getting all his brass back. ( one stage I was in the LAMR as a shooter and all I could hear was his b#t$%ing)

anyway..my impression was he was distracted by other things..than being focused on his shooting..

It is always tough to DQ someone..and the RO is one of those nice guys, that works hard, is an officer in one of the other section clubs. I believe his intention was to help school the shooter..and I suppose the hope is they learn..That being said...not sure what I would have done...

as even earlier that day..I was ROing and I gave the shooter the LAMR..thankfully she saw one of the tapers still downrange in a blind spot (blocked by a barricade).

[folsoml]

  Our club doesn't allow anyone to approach the start position until range clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a disservice to the guy who is on deck. I don't know if you were at Area 6, or have seen all the postings about it, but this would have really been the ONLY time he/she could do a walk through without 14 other people being in the way.

At a local match, I have no problem with an RO giving a warning. Local matches are there so new shooters can learn the game. At a major match, this should be a DQ.

[davidwiz]

I would DQ the shooter who handled his gun with someone downrange. It was a local match, he hopefully learns from his mistake and doesn't do it again. If he B&M, then it is on him, as he was the one who committed the saftey infraction, not the RO.

I dislike ROs (at USPSA or other matches) who let saftey violations slide, especially ones that involve people handling a gun while others are downrange. If it was me, I'd have a chat with the RM (who is responsible for the ROs at the match, the MD has no authority) and possibly bring it to the attention of the NROI, if the RO was certified as a RO, if the concern wasn't addressed satisfactorily by the RM). There is no such thing as "no harm, no foul" in my book.

-David

[MarkS_A18138]

We have this happen a lot at our indoor range because we get a ton of new shooters there. We will give them a warning the first time but thats it! After that thanks for the 10 bucks and we will see you next week. We have also had new shooters show up in total race gear becasue they saw it on the internet! I think the RO was right in giving the warning, the only thing that bothers me is the fact RTR was down range! I would watch this guy for a while, I have seen his type and they seem to be the big DQ people at our range.

[stingerjg]

davidwiz

i ment RM not MD.

[Alan Meek]

It should have been a DQ per the rules

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety

area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a

direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

There is no warning given by the RO.

Yes I have DQ'd shooters for this very safety violation, even though nobody was down range.

You can never compromise safety.

Alan

[mike.45]

I dont think being an RO is all Black and White ....IPSC rules may be black and White and so is the law in most lands, but actually enforcing those rules there is a lot of grey colour - in Law Enforcement as well as IPSC shooting, if the violation is minor, not worthy of the set penalty, or unforseen circumstances make an unpredictable outcome arrive then discresion counts.

How about a real fast moving stage, the shooter kicks As* but the RO by trying to keep up with him to get the time score on the timer accidently brushes with him during the COF, the shooter didnt even notice but the RO did and the shooter is estatic as he / she did so well - automatic re-shoot ? or ask the shooter if they felt hindered by your infraction.... I would ask if MY error effected them, if they said no, then the time stands.

I think the RO did just great, next time, same shooter, then go by the book, until then the RO was within his rights and made a judgement call. As he is expected to do.

[Alan Meek]

Mike, your example involves whether or not the competitor was interfered with during the course of fire. Different circumstance than the one this topic is about.

Safety should never be a judgement call.

Also the shooter in most cases have the arbitration process to resolve those times that it is a questionable call.

[shred]

How about a revolver shooter breaking the 180 while doing a reload? Specifically while the cylinder is open, empty and their hand is inside the cylinder window? I let one of those slide with a stern warning once. Still not sure it was the right call.

[Precision40]

The RO is an experienced shooter and good RO, ironically at a steel match last year (not a USPSA match) I dropped my loaded open gun out of my holster, and he said to me something to the effect of that should be a DQ but I'm not going to DQ you.

So what would you do in this situation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes trying to do the right thing ends up being the wrong thing. We try let our new folks know that you don't handle your guns anywhere outside of either the safe area or under the supervision of an RO.

I've seen quite a few DQ'able offenses slide. Being an RO is sort of a catch-22 situation, if you DQ someone every single time an offense is committed, your a nazi. But if you don't call a DQ, your looked at as inconsistent. I don't have any answers to what should be done. I had to DQ 2 people at the Double-Tap Champs and it really hurt to do that because it just feels wrong, even if you know you made the right call.

[MVZ]

The RO is an experienced shooter and good RO, ironically at a steel match last year (not a USPSA match) I dropped my loaded open gun out of my holster, and he said to me something to the effect of that should be a DQ but I'm not going to DQ you.

So what would you do in this situation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes trying to do the right thing ends up being the wrong thing. We try let our new folks know that you don't handle your guns anywhere outside of either the safe area or under the supervision of an RO.

I've seen quite a few DQ'able offenses slide. Being an RO is sort of a catch-22 situation, if you DQ someone every single time an offense is committed, your a nazi. But if you don't call a DQ, your looked at as inconsistent. I don't have any answers to what should be done. I had to DQ 2 people at the Double-Tap Champs and it really hurt to do that because it just feels wrong, even if you know you made the right call.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no grey area when it comes to issuing a DQ. Breaking the 180 is breaking the 180, sweaping, gun handling, dropped loaded firearm are all serious safety issues and is the reason they are spelled out as DQable violations. If it happens a DQ must be given. It's not fun to DQ a shooter new or experianced, but the safety issues involved must be protected. IN my 8 years of ROing only one shooter has not come back after being DQed. Almost all the others have come up and thanked me for the action I took and Promised to be more diligent to the safety rules in the future

[warpspeed]

you could bring it to the attn of the Match Director, that someone committed a obvious DQ'able offense and the RO failed to take appropriate action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with Stingerjg on this one. Find out who is running the match / range and tell them that the individual responsible for your saftey and the saftey of the other shooters is not enforcing the rules.

I also think I'd shoot with a different group if they let this stuff slide.

[Nik Habicht]

I did nothing, because I don't want to be the guy that sends a new shooter home forever and what was done was done.  I didn't want to say anything to the RO because I'm not a certified RO and am less experienced in practical shooting than him.

So what would you do in this situation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is where your match director (who, most likely at a club match is doing double duty as Range Master) comes in. Find him, tell him ---- it's his job to sort the situation out.

I think reporting the RO and the shooter to the MD would be way harsh - the RO made a judgement call on what he deemed would be a misdermeanor DQ as compared to a full blown "STOP !!!!" The RO obviously knows the rules, he knows his options and he knows discresion is an available option to him - it sounds like he also knew that the shooter was new and had made a minor mistake - there was no danger posed, the gun didnt point at anyone and wasnt loaded - words of advice and the rules infringments pointed out, the shooter learns, and his whole weekend isnt ruined - sounds like a smart and decent RO to me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reporting the RO and the shooter to the match director ought to be a no-brainer. As a match director I need to know what's going on at my match --- I need to know anytime someone commits a safety infraction. If someone gets hurt, odds are I'm getting sued --- I have no interest in experiencing that. If I hear about the situation, that doesn't necessarily mean that the shooter will be DQ'd or that the RO will get an earful ---- it will mean that I have an opportunity to discover IF I have a potential (recurring) safety problem at my club. It's also an opportunity for me to learn as an RO and for me to teach, if necessary. This is a potentially dangerous game we play --- there are certain aspects of it that we can never be too serious about.

FOR NEW SHOOTER ( and old)

I make it a habit when I a told to step forward to the line to:

At the load an make ready command I visually check downrange and the 180 line to verify for myself that the range is clear.  Then I proceed with the RO's instructions.  Two people verifying are better than one.   Don't be an automaton on auto pilot.

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This may be the best piece of advice in the entire thread. It should be taught all new shooters during their safety check.

At a local match, I have no problem with an RO giving a warning.  Local matches are there so new shooters can learn the game.  At a major match, this should be a DQ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry --- for safety violations the learning curve needs to be exactly the same at a club match, as it is at a major.......

How about a revolver shooter breaking the 180 while doing a reload?  Specifically while the cylinder is open, empty and their hand is inside the cylinder window?  I let one of those slide with a stern warning once.  Still not sure it was the right call.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope I never get that as an arbitration based on the "but it wasn't unsafe" argument......

[Flexmoney]

How about a real fast moving stage, the shooter kicks As* but the RO by trying to keep up with him to get the time score on the timer accidently brushes with him during the COF, the shooter didnt even notice but the RO did and the shooter is estatic as he / she did so well - automatic re-shoot ? or ask the shooter if they felt hindered by your infraction.... I would ask if MY error effected them, if they said no, then the time stands.

This a a drift from the original question, but it needs a quick answer.

Rule 8.6.3 states that, in case of inadvertent contact from the RO...the RO may offer reshoot (prior to the competitor seeing their time or hits). There is no "automatic reshoot" in this instance.

[Jake Di Vita]

Remember. In our sport there are no "local" rules. A safety violation is a safety violation...you are doing the shooter a disservice by NOT DQing him.

Going to the RM would have been the best bet.

[folsoml]

What if the new shooter/newly DQed shooter gets in his car and never looks back? Have we done him a service? Have we really done the sport a service? A stern warning may have been all he needed to never do that again. I was given a warning for sweeping my own hand during my first match. Should I have been DQed? Rules say yes. Would I have come back? Who knows. Have I been conscious of where my muzzle points since then? Darn right.

[ErikW]

So what would you do in this situation?

File a third party arbitration. They can't look the other way when you put it in writing and put up your money.

What if the new shooter/newly DQed shooter gets in his car and never looks back? Have we done him a service? Have we really done the sport a service?

Yes, a like-new 2011 and rig will soon be up for sale. Hopefully, the new owner will be somebody who can follow simple instructions and has respect for his or her fellow competitors.

[SmittyFL]

An extremely switched on RO would have given the LAMR as fast as possible when he saw the new shooter bringing his gun out, then said re-holster when he saw everybody was not back from pasting.

Then explain to the new shooter the rule on gun handling. I always try to avoid embarrassing new shooters, this sport is intimidating enough. The main thing is safety obviously, but try and teach the rules also, insteading of learning by getting dq'd.

Of course if said new shooter was an A-hole, that's a different story.

[Carmoney]

How about a revolver shooter breaking the 180 while doing a reload?  Specifically while the cylinder is open, empty and their hand is inside the cylinder window?  I let one of those slide with a stern warning once.  Still not sure it was the right call.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shred, I'm curious, are you talking about the "horizontal 180" or the "vertical 180"?

[davidwiz]

What if the new shooter/newly DQed shooter gets in his car and never looks back?  Have we done him a service?  Have we really done the sport a service?  A stern warning may have been all he needed to never do that again.  I was given a warning for sweeping my own hand during my first match.  Should I have been DQed?  Rules say yes.  Would I have come back?  Who knows.  Have I been conscious of where my muzzle points since then?  Darn right.

If you're the person downrange when the gun is being handled (its happend to me more times than I care to remember), you're going to want the rules enforced and the applicable rule(s) applied.

I think it is a bad idea to look the other way on the off chance that the shooter will get PO'ed and never come back. If that is the standard to use, i.e. not upset the shooter, then why have rules that adversely affect a competitor at all? I've seen people B&M like a little child because a Miss or NS was called. Where is the line to be drawn?

-David

[Flexmoney]

What if the new shooter/newly DQed shooter gets in his car and never looks back?  Have we done him a service?  Have we really done the sport a service?

What if....

What if the shooters that show up at each and every match...the known return customers...the guys and gals that are down range setting and pasting...(you get the picture)...

What if THEY don't come back because the match isn't being run by the safety rules?!?!