IPSC GUY Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Are triggers that fire once on the Trigger Pull and Once on the release like the Franklin Armory Binary Triggers allowed in USPSA competition? IPSC GUY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) :ETA:: I just saw this is posted in the multigun section. I rescind my answer. Edited April 25, 2016 by Gooldylocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 The Provisional USPSA rules suggest that "Binary Triggers" would be prohibited... refer to rules 5.1.11 and 10.2.13. Rule 4.2 of the IMA Rules (SMM3G) states that weapons that allow more than 1 round fired with each "pull" of the trigger will be penalized 30 seconds per occurrence. Probably not a good idea to use one if you intend to win a match... 4.2 Firearms capable of fully automatic- or burst-fire (“machine guns”) may be used only in semi-auto mode (i.e. not more than one (1) round fired with each pull of the trigger). Violation of this rule will incur a 30 second time penalty per occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 The Provisional USPSA rules suggest that "Binary Triggers" would be prohibited... refer to rules 5.1.11 and 10.2.13. Rule 4.2 of the IMA Rules (SMM3G) states that weapons that allow more than 1 round fired with each "pull" of the trigger will be penalized 30 seconds per occurrence. Probably not a good idea to use one if you intend to win a match... 4.2 Firearms capable of fully automatic- or burst-fire (“machine guns”) may be used only in semi-auto mode (i.e. not more than one (1) round fired with each pull of the trigger). Violation of this rule will incur a 30 second time penalty per occurrence. If it shot more than one round per pull, it would be considered a machine gun and subject to NFA rules. Since it only fires one round per pull, it should be legal. It fires the second round when the trigger is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 The Provisional USPSA rules suggest that "Binary Triggers" would be prohibited... refer to rules 5.1.11 and 10.2.13. Rule 4.2 of the IMA Rules (SMM3G) states that weapons that allow more than 1 round fired with each "pull" of the trigger will be penalized 30 seconds per occurrence. Probably not a good idea to use one if you intend to win a match... 4.2 Firearms capable of fully automatic- or burst-fire (“machine guns”) may be used only in semi-auto mode (i.e. not more than one (1) round fired with each pull of the trigger). Violation of this rule will incur a 30 second time penalty per occurrence. If it shot more than one round per pull, it would be considered a machine gun and subject to NFA rules. Since it only fires one round per pull, it should be legal. It fires the second round when the trigger is released. Which is the same trigger pull..? You can't just pull a trigger and then hold it back indefintely, eventually you will have to discharge that round. So, more than one round per trigger actuation (see, I didn't use pull that time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1094 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) But the rule you quoted did say pull, not actuation. While I think it would be unsafe and useless on a compitition gun, I'm guessing he could get away with it. OP you may want to ask the match director for whatever match you plan on using it at. Edited April 25, 2016 by usmc1094 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 I am still researching this whole thing, 1. The safety of the device is the first factor and from what I have read the second shot can be negated by simply turning the selector off the third position resetting the trigger back to semi only. 2. The legality with the ATF, The ATF has provided a letter saying its legal. 3. Is it allowed in competition? The desire is for a faster double tap. This video shows the negation of the second round. The desire is of course for a faster double tap BUT not at the cost of safety or running afowl of the rules IPSC GUY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee blackman Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Just a heads up, you won't get a faster double tap... I ordered one of those triggers, waited 8 weeks to get it, and was ultimately disappointed. Its a way way overpriced novelty. Also these aren't drop in units. Mine didn't fit in any of the dang lowers I had on hand, and they want money for you to ship it and install. If you plan on ordering one, order it pre installed in their lower just to save some headache. On the positive side I'm really glad to see these being produced, and hope for a refined drop in product by a competitor to hit the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Just a heads up, you won't get a faster double tap... I ordered one of those triggers, waited 8 weeks to get it, and was ultimately disappointed. Its a way way overpriced novelty. Also these aren't drop in units. Mine didn't fit in any of the dang lowers I had on hand, and they want money for you to ship it and install. If you plan on ordering one, order it pre installed in their lower just to save some headache. On the positive side I'm really glad to see these being produced, and hope for a refined drop in product by a competitor to hit the market. Do they have to hog out the lower? Like happy-switch hog out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) Just a heads up, you won't get a faster double tap... I ordered one of those triggers, waited 8 weeks to get it, and was ultimately disappointed. Its a way way overpriced novelty. Also these aren't drop in units. Mine didn't fit in any of the dang lowers I had on hand, and they want money for you to ship it and install. If you plan on ordering one, order it pre installed in their lower just to save some headache. On the positive side I'm really glad to see these being produced, and hope for a refined drop in product by a competitor to hit the market. Ok interesting! So your experience was not a faster double tap? Also was your second shot wildly off from your first as well? As in did the shot occur as the recoil was upsetting sight picture and alignment? I think another company is working on a drop in version as well. IPSC GUY Edited April 25, 2016 by IPSC GUY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Just a heads up, you won't get a faster double tap... I ordered one of those triggers, waited 8 weeks to get it, and was ultimately disappointed. Its a way way overpriced novelty. Also these aren't drop in units. Mine didn't fit in any of the dang lowers I had on hand, and they want money for you to ship it and install. If you plan on ordering one, order it pre installed in their lower just to save some headache. On the positive side I'm really glad to see these being produced, and hope for a refined drop in product by a competitor to hit the market. Do they have to hog out the lower? Like happy-switch hog out? I don't believe they have to hog anything out, I think they have to insert shims to get the disconnector height correct, "I THINK" is the issue but that's just a supposition on my part. IPSC GUY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Jesus, the guy in the video is doing the annoying "neck stretching" thing after each series of shots. Wonder if his cheek weld is off and that's what's causing his neck stiffness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomicferret Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 He is scanning for other threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 He is scanning for other threats. LOL, okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespid_Wasp Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Solution in search of a problem. And potentially dangerous IMHO. Buy a high quality single stage from one of the manufacturers who support our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 and not super fast. My timny trigger dialed down, heavy bull barrel, and JP comp would let me shoot as fast or faster than that, without the shady might technically be a machine gun edge. practice and good gear, not gimmicks. that said, I shot a USPSA stage with a GLock 18 and 33 round mags. each target got about 6 shots, and it was AMAZINGLY easy to control and make good shots. so full auto does have some competition uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) IS IT LEGAL? I would say that under IMA rules there is enough in rule 4.2 (described above) that the RM could have a basis to declare it to be in violation (i.e. every time you PULL the trigger, you get two shots) and thus subject to the +30 second penalty per occurrence. Even if you arbitrated the ruling and won, outlaw matches have the freedom to change rules more frequently than USPSA (no pesky bylaws), so your expensive binary trigger would likely be banned the following season. IS IT A GOOD IDEA? I would say emphatically NO. While it may be marginally faster on close-range targets as shown in the videos above, more often than not you are also working with longer distances, partial targets, no-shoots etc. If you have to keep switching the selector between "single" and "binary" modes, you would for sure lose far more time than you ever gain with any minor reduction in split time. As others have indicated, a good single-stage match trigger will be just about as fast without any of the associated drama. A binary trigger is a great way of separating mall ninjas from their money though... pure marketing genius Edited April 28, 2016 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 We really don't have malls where I live, but we have Nijas out the wazoo! Maybe we can agree on key board Ninjas, or YouTube Ninjas, or ........ Wait....... Craining neck Ninjas! Good read Stealthy!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 We really don't have malls where I live, but we have Nijas out the wazoo! Maybe we can agree on key board Ninjas, or YouTube Ninjas, or ........ Wait....... Craining neck Ninjas! Good read Stealthy!!!!! You have malls near by.......you've probably already bought 3 of these triggers, Master Crane Neck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 My problem with the product is the name. Shouldn't a binary trigger require the use of two digits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Ya mean like this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 (edited) Yes it is illegal! Troy covered this in the RO class I took. Can't state the rule but if he says no that means you can't since he helps write the rule book Edited April 29, 2016 by mwray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Are triggers that fire once on the Trigger Pull and Once on the release like the Franklin Armory Binary Triggers allowed in USPSA competition? IPSC GUY Not an answer to your question but I think these things are dangerous. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 About 4 years ago I shot a few stages at a match with one - well not exactly a "Binary" just my worn out one. Took me about 3 shots to figure out what was going on, finished that stage and the final one of the day, went home and changed before the final day. Close targets were OK, long range was not good. Too much thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 (edited) Are triggers that fire once on the Trigger Pull and Once on the release like the Franklin Armory Binary Triggers allowed in USPSA competition? IPSC GUY Not an answer to your question but I think these things are dangerous.Pat I concur. I've seen more than a few newer shooters take a shot then start talking or moving around before they let off the trigger. Its unlikely that such people will ever use this trigger but it still seems questionable. A buddy of mine whose new to guns just built a rifle and the cheap mil spec trigger was firing on reset. He was confused and flustered enough that his muzzle awareness got a little sketchy. I thought it was kind of fun for a couple minutes but it wore off quick. Edited April 29, 2016 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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