alma Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Looks like Max is all in for Carry Optics. That's going to make it pretty hard to win with irons alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot. Exactly ...unless every CO shooter in the match is C class and below and a few GMs show up & shoot irons it's not going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot.Exactly ...unless every CO shooter in the match is C class and below and a few GMs show up & shoot irons it's not going to happen Can't say I agree with you guys on this one. Is a dot faster than irons? Sometimes. Every time? No Especially not all the way down to C class. I'm pretty confident you couldn't take a non super squad GM, give him a CO gun, and think it's a slam dunk against production guns at nationals. Open guns with high classifications get slammed every weekend by production guns. And thats a huge advantage, not just a dot on a plastic gun. We all know limited guns hold a measurable disadvantage to open guns, but I bet none of us would put a paycheck on a weekend warrior open GM up against Nils with his limited gun. Especially not on the stages at Pasa Park. The match would have to look like this past years open/limited/L10 stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 No more need for discussion now. Optic is required. Required use of a slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Agree. If this is "Carry Optics" and is a provisional division that needs to be tested and proven, it should include only equipment that describes the division, at Major matches (LII and above). This way we'll find out how popular (and how needed) the division is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackinSD Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 New Carry Optics statement made just now. https://www.facebook.com/USPracticalShootingAssn/?fref=photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'm more interested in the increased weight limit to 45 oz, and the cosmetic cuts! Slide lightened S2 with a Deltapoint. HYFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 The USPSA DownRange e-mail newsletter said that a new Appendix has been added to the online rulebook. But when I checked, there was no new Appendix and the App D7 for CO posted on the Rules webpage hadn't changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocrrhbow Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I am fairly new to USPSA (less than a full year) so I hesitate to express my opinion juxtaposed to people who have been part of the sport for decades but I am no stranger to this type of debate in other sports. I have been a skydiver for 40 years and the same debate takes place there each time they crate a new competitive category. People are concerned that the new category will dilute the competition in the discipline they are vested in and they don't want to learn new skills or invest in new equipment to compete in a strange new category. They say it could be bad for the sport. They say it is catering to special interests. The facts are that the only threat to a sport is stagnation. To stay relevant a sport must adapt and grow. I see Carry Optics as a great way to transition from production to something short of open in a cost effective way. I have a gun on order to allow me to compete in CO and can't wait to get it and start enjoying a different challenge. I got into this sport to have fun and after all is said and done is should be about having fun. CO seems like it will be a lot of fun for not much money. I hope it gets accepted as a permanent division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insertgenericid Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Seconded. I'd like to read it. The USPSA DownRange e-mail newsletter said that a new Appendix has been added to the online rulebook. But when I checked, there was no new Appendix and the App D7 for CO posted on the Rules webpage hadn't changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 No more need for discussion now. Optic is required. Required use of a slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic. So my optic breaks. Can I finish the match with suppressor sights, while keeping the optic on the gun? Is there a requirement that I turn the optic on? How are we going to police that? What happens when the dot goes off halfway through the stage? How will we police that? Can I have back up sights on the gun? What happens if my gun breaks, and my only backup is my production gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 If this forum wrote the rule book it would be 1000 pages long. Common sense says optic breaks u can finish. Back up gun with no optic shouldn't be allowed. In every other situation a back up gun needs to meet division requirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 To shoot CO, you have to have an Optic on your pistol. If you don't turn it on, who cares. You've still shot the match in Carry Optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 No more need for discussion now. Optic is required. Required use of a slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic. [/size] So my optic breaks. Can I finish the match with suppressor sights, while keeping the optic on the gun?Is there a requirement that I turn the optic on? How are we going to police that? What happens when the dot goes off halfway through the stage? How will we police that? Can I have back up sights on the gun? What happens if my gun breaks, and my only backup is my production gun? I assume you are kidding, as the below responses are clearly the answer to your queries. All kidding aside, as a moderator, are you trolling? Have you bothered to read the posts on the USPSA forum and USPSA FB page where there have been explanations from BoD members? If this forum wrote the rule book it would be 1000 pages long. Common sense says optic breaks u can finish. Back up gun with no optic shouldn't be allowed. In every other situation a back up gun needs to meet division requirements To shoot CO, you have to have an Optic on your pistol. If you don't turn it on, who cares. You've still shot the match in Carry Optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Nope -- I'd just come in from work -- so this seemed like a harebrained proposal, until I read the minutes, etc. One question still hasn't been answered -- can I have backup irons on a CO gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Nope -- I'd just come in from work -- so this seemed like a harebrained proposal, until I read the minutes, etc. One question still hasn't been answered -- can I have backup irons on a CO gun? Yed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 No more need for discussion now. Optic is required. Required use of a slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic. [/size] So my optic breaks. Can I finish the match with suppressor sights, while keeping the optic on the gun?Is there a requirement that I turn the optic on? How are we going to police that? What happens when the dot goes off halfway through the stage? How will we police that? Can I have back up sights on the gun? What happens if my gun breaks, and my only backup is my production gun? I assume you are kidding, as the below responses are clearly the answer to your queries. All kidding aside, as a moderator, are you trolling? Have you bothered to read the posts on the USPSA forum and USPSA FB page where there have been explanations from BoD members? If this forum wrote the rule book it would be 1000 pages long. Common sense says optic breaks u can finish. Back up gun with no optic shouldn't be allowed. In every other situation a back up gun needs to meet division requirements To shoot CO, you have to have an Optic on your pistol. If you don't turn it on, who cares. You've still shot the match in Carry Optics. Okay, is this not cheating, atbarr? You must use a slide mounted optic, correct? The division can not be shot with iron sights, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 No more need for discussion now. Optic is required. Required use of a slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic. [/size] So my optic breaks. Can I finish the match with suppressor sights, while keeping the optic on the gun?Is there a requirement that I turn the optic on? How are we going to police that? What happens when the dot goes off halfway through the stage? How will we police that? Can I have back up sights on the gun? What happens if my gun breaks, and my only backup is my production gun? I assume you are kidding, as the below responses are clearly the answer to your queries. All kidding aside, as a moderator, are you trolling? Have you bothered to read the posts on the USPSA forum and USPSA FB page where there have been explanations from BoD members? If this forum wrote the rule book it would be 1000 pages long. Common sense says optic breaks u can finish. Back up gun with no optic shouldn't be allowed. In every other situation a back up gun needs to meet division requirements To shoot CO, you have to have an Optic on your pistol. If you don't turn it on, who cares. You've still shot the match in Carry Optics. Okay, is this not cheating, atbarr? You must use a slide mounted optic, correct? The division can not be shot with iron sights, correct? So, are we going to check each shooter at the start of each stage? Don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I didn't see where it said irons are illegal. It says pistols without a slide mounted optic are prohibited. This argument about irons is starting to remind me of people at an IDPA match arguing about a procedural for a pinky toe sticking out behind a juice drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 You do realize Brian that the prior DNROI ruled that a WML was not a light if the batteries were removed. The slippery slope got created when common sense got tossed aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Seems to just say that an optic has to be on the gun. Doesn't say that the optic has to be on or used. It would be interesting to see someone like Ben S. show up to CO Nationals and win it with an optic that he never turns on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Ben could show up with a squirt gun and win at nationals, I would think. Legal, if it had an optic. Maybe it's best to leave it at "must have an optic". I don't think many of us will be wanting to ask every CO shooter to show us that the dot is on. I do think the idea of this part of the discussion has to do with keeping non-CO people from entering in the division and artificially driving up the numbers. Heck, I'd classify in CO with a Prod gun just to see how I'd do. But if the rules say no, I won't. SS and Revo have clear equipment rules. No reason why CO couldn't be the same. The proponents have made a very persistent case for this being unique and even special. If you don't have one, you could always borrow one, to see how it goes... Edited January 30, 2016 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) I had a discussion with another shooter that made an interesting point. The requirement for an optic makes sense in the short term to help determine actual interest in the division as envisioned, requiring the optic removed those just entering the division to get classified or earn a ribbon. Once the division is finalized and no longer provisional it would make sense to eliminate that requirement as there would no longer be the need to collect that type of data Edited January 30, 2016 by bikerburgess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 It would be great to know of we could add external weight now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I had a discussion with another shooter that made an interesting point. The requirement for an optic makes sense in the short term to help determine actual interest in the division as envisioned, requiring the optic removed those just entering the division to get classified or earn a ribbon. Once the division is finalized and no longer provisional it would make sense to eliminate that requirement as there would no longer be the need to collect that type of data+1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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