Dan Sierpina Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 No Dan, now they would have to haul a whole separate set of gear and guns to do that! This way it is all the same stuff! Make that last minute "division shopping" expedition real easy. Oooops. I guess I was thinking division changing in advance of the match, rather than at sign in and shooter's meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) At our local matches, Limited participation is comparable to Open. Most are shooting red dots. For a given quality level, dots are very affordable compared with low power variables. I am not seeing a problem that needs fixing. As an RO who most assuredly DOES keep a close eye on equipment compliance, I see a lot of opportunity for problems. Aside from obvious cheating, there is the "inadvertant" bump of the scope lever, plus the fact that many low power variables do not truly get down to 1x... someone would have to assess minimum magnification for each optic, or compile a list of approved scopes. One other point: many Limited shooters are drawn to the division because it is perceived to be affordable. If people start winning with low power variables, the perception will start to form that you need such optics to be competitive. As we all know, perception is often reality in our game. Edited December 21, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 The attitude most often seems to be that a variable with a bdc is required to hit targets past 200 in 3 gun so I don't see a large number of newly minted limited shooters taking the bait. Guys shoot scope not because they want to shoot limited but because they think its impossible to hit anything otherwise. I'm also not a fan of division shopping, enter a division and stick with it. I think it would be fun to shoot against guys running scopes on 1x with useless bdc reticles who aren't used to holdovers though. Still is the no camp though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Yes Pat, lets thank the "optic companies" for bringing us this great change in limited that "pioneered" the use of red dots in "iron sight". Those companies are such forward thinkers! lol. I guess RNT is in the Optics business.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLG8R Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I shoot irons, real, old school irons and enjoy shooting them. I wouldn't have a problem allowing a true 1x to shoot in my class/division (depends on whose match you are at) as long as there was a zip tie, tape or something holding the throw lever/power ring at 1. I don't see it any different than downloading mags for class/division requirement or allowing red dot shooters to leave their magnifiers on the gun, but not allowing them to put them in line with the dot. I have also been to matches that allowed a rifle with an offset dot to keep it on the rifle as long as it was covered for the entire match. Allowing people to compete with a variable fixed at true 1x is not going to give a great advantage (weight of variable is generally more than a dot) to them, in my opinion. It may even get more people to shoot the "limited" class/division. While I wish there were more irons shooters, and wish they were shooting real irons, it is not looking promising anymore. Two weeks ago at Ft Benning, I was the only person at the match running iron sights, to my knowledge. There just isn't any interest in running irons in this country anymore. Hurley This year at Ft Benning only 2 heavy metal shooters... I was disappointed to say the least to have come in Second! But had a great time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 So far this thread has 29 replies and over 400 views. If I could be assured of at least 29 competitors in limited in every decent sized match in the country, or 400 regular limited shooters total I would not waste my time advocating any rule that may pump up participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 My initial thought was heck no. But after giving it some thought I can see some merit. Frankly Kurt's suggestion that someone might get to a match and realize that Daniel Horner is shooting Scoped Tact is kind of silly. He almost always shoots ST. Why would anyone wait till the match to realize that. What I do like about it is the ability to travel to a match with one rifle and one optic. Take a look at the match and if the match staff did a good job of presenting reasonably visible targets that are possible for me on 1x, shoot Limited. If the MD's decided to bone limited shooters then I can shoot 1-6x rather than get frustrated and not be able to see the dang targets. I've been close to shooting Limited a few times in the last year but was glad I didn't when I got there and could barely see some of the targets on 4x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcs352 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I am by no means a ninja when it comes to 3 gun and just try to shoot an occasional local match when they become available but I have to admit I would give limited a go with my variable optic if given the opportunity. Hell darn near half the time I almost already am as I forget to turn my scope power up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) I understand the sentiment, but I have run Limited and or Heavy Metal for a Decade, and both have nearly died from lack of participation. Heavy is still limping along at a couple of matches and Limited has made a comeback with the intro of 1x optics. "Irons Period" means it will go back to the slow decay again. Oh and I have no problem shooting Irons "against" 1x optics...it ain't no thang. Did allowing 1X and non magnified optics save Limited, or did it just allow it to die in a less obvious way? Edited December 22, 2015 by T Bacus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I used to shoot Limited. Then I got bi-focals or variables. I cannot see the targets and the sights. A dot actually allows me to shoot 'Iron' on local matches as at our ranges here the distance is 100 yards max and I shoot usually at 1 or 2x anyway unless someone puts the 4" targets at 100 yards. I think that this should be, if it is allowed, treated as a level I exemption. we zip-tie your throw lever down, or just take a look at the ring before and after to see you aren't screwing around and that is it. At majors I would be against it and frankly I don't think anyone traveling to a major match, having invested $300 in fees, $200 in ammo, $3oo+ in hotels and meals plus time off from work, car rental, airfare etc is going to show up and suddenly decide, hey I think I'll switch from TO to TI. Especially seeing that the target engagements are likely to be much harder at 1x than at 4-8x. True Daniel will be there and kick butts, but if not him, someone else. My vote, if it were to come to it would be NO, unless as above it was limited to a local match. A few newbies might, but most there would be going the other way. It might actually be the more experienced shooters at the local level that might look to the challenge and opt in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 What Chuck said is right except it is silly as well, It is for when he shows up and you didn't expect it! T Bacus for the win! Did RNT save non Magnified division? Well maybe not, but what we sure as hell did was open 3-gun up to guys who didn't have a place to play with their "social rifle" and in so doing got hooked on 3-gun! Now most the guys I kept track of gravitated to Optics after a bit, after all the were already "glass quire", so may be not saved, but it does have value. Jim, I have switched from TI to TO at the last minute, There were 15 people in TI and all of them were new shooters except me. I told the M.D. to put me in TO and I shot the whole match with my TI rifle in TO. So with that in mind, and with the way folks think in this nation now a days. If a person can shoot a Iron sighted rifle in Optics class it is only fair that a Optic guy can shoot his rifle in Iron class. If not we are being bigoted and we need a march or protest or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I always know when Daniel is going to show up. I borrowed his phone a couple years ago and installed a Find my Phone app. Now he's Lo-Jacked. I just check his location before packing for a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 ^^^^^ ^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I just saw spitfires online for $149 new. I will have to count myself as a NO vote on this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 If there is no competitive advantage in allowing someone to shoot a variable stuck on 1x then why is there all of this fervor to prevent it? We already allow 1x, what is the effective difference of allowing a variable that is fixed at 1x? It does not matter how cheap a fixed 1x optic can be had for, or who is shooting in what division, or why. If we allow 1x optics then we should allow variables fixed at 1x. For those voting no can you give any reasons to support your opinions? The argument as to whether limited should be allowed to die is a separate argument. If the match directors decide to not offer limited then so be it, but if not then why should we not consider changes that might improve participation or if nothing else clear up the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I just saw spitfires online for $149 new. I will have to count myself as a NO vote on this idea. Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) PSA. And I have seen thise little bushnell dots for $59 recently. I really don't have a lot of fervor about it, but my reason for voting NO is that I don't have very much faith in folks always doing the right thing. Not that everyone intentionally or maliciously screws someone else over, but the more variables (interesting play on words here) you add, the more things can get messed up. Edited December 22, 2015 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Seems to me a scope with a MIL or BDC reticle fixed at 1x and an actual red dot function would be a highly competitive against irons, a dot, or even a Pris for the average person. Especially when you do whatever math is required to compensate for the distortion of the reticle at 1x and then dope working holdovers with your new "irons optic". If the goal of all this is to increase Irons participation then I think we're going about it the wrong way. The division would be better off if matches didn't have rifle targets that 25% of shooters can't see without a scope, and 50% of the shooters can't hit without a scope - but the way the sport has been going since I got in is more tech and harder targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Ken has really hit the mark. Iron sight division's demise DID IN FACT start when targets became less visible, when M.D.s started getting lazy and not painting or having a good back drop, putting targets in the shadows.,...etc. Iron sight/Standard over seas is still a viable and well attended division because the targets are VISIBLE and they make sure that they are!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Ken has really hit the mark. Iron sight division's demise DID IN FACT start when targets became less visible, when M.D.s started getting lazy and not painting or having a good back drop, putting targets in the shadows.,...etc. Iron sight/Standard over seas is still a viable and well attended division because the targets are VISIBLE and they make sure that they are!!! I agree with Ken and Kurt! This will continue with many events (that I choose not to attend as a result) and will get "worse" with the new fervor for the 6 and now 8 power scopes! I wish that our carbines could just be carbines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) lol, so you trade Daniel Horner for Joel Turner? good luck with that Your better off switching to open and hoping the old farts on top topple over.. Honestly I wouldn't be shooting Limited if I had I to shoot with irons only. At our local matches that are ran in a bay, I say we're 50% Tac-ops 45% Limited 5% open, with limited on the rise. Only 1 local match (Rocky Mountain) actually shoots targets beyond 150yards for more then one stage. Can you guess how many Limited shooters we have then I have a older First Gen Razor 1-4 that is FFP, Even at one power that scope was way to busy to be used for 1x long range shooting. I'll stick with my Prismatic that cost 4x less Edited December 22, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) lol, so you trade Daniel Horner for Joel Turner? good luck with that Your better off switching to open and hoping the old farts on top topple over.. Honestly I wouldn't be shooting Limited if I had I to shoot with irons only. At our local matches that are ran in a bay, I say we're 50% Tac-ops 45% Limited 5% open, with limited on the rise. Only 1 local match (Rocky Mountain) actually shoots targets beyond 150yards for more then one stage. Can you guess how many Limited shooters we have then I have a older First Gen Razor 1-4 that is FFP, Even at one power that scope was way to busy to be used for 1x long range shooting. I'll stick with my Prismatic that cost 4x less 39 Limited Irons, 16 He-Man Irons = 55 out of about 275 Not awesome, but not nothing either! Edited to add 34 He-Man Scope, 48 open so...137 not Limited Scope...so LS was only half of the match. Not even, but we're working on it! Merry Christmas everyone! Denise Edited December 22, 2015 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 LS probably has enough people in it who haven't even tried shooting out to 400 with a red dot. While it's tougher, it's not a Herculean task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Denise I'm talking about your local matches not the big shows.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Denise I'm talking about your local matches not the big shows.. Well yeah, but there's still a good percentage...since we're so far from everyone...we don't have 80 shooters like some of the other local matches here abouts!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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