Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Garrett]

Has the BOD mentioned if they have someone modifying all of the classifiers to add alternate PCC start positions /stage procedures yet?

Also, how do they work out the high hit factors for the new division? It's going to be a while before we get a sufficient number of GMs to shoot each of the currency published classifiers.

I get the impression they used existing HHFs as a guide for some of the newer divisions. But that wouldn't necessarily work to apply a "pistol" HHF to PCC.

[StealthyBlagga]

My assumption is that the July 1 start date is intended to give NROI and USPSA the breathing room to iron out this and the several other issues that need to be considered. Hopefully someone in the organizations will be along with an update in due course.

[d_striker]

I'd probably shoot it at least half the time.

when you actually do that for more than a few months, I'll admit I was wrong.

In the meantime, I don't really care. We had PCC in a recent match, only a handful of people shot it, they had fun, and it didn't seem to have any affect on the rest of us. Once it gets big enough to have a pcc-only match with stages that are optimized for PCC, I might get interested.

Agreed. A 9mm sbr has been on my list of things to get for years. I'm planning on building one with a lower I got at A2. I have no interest shooting it on handgun stages though.

I seriously hope there is enough support for PCC to justify standalone matches that would make it more challenging.

[d_striker]

what it really boils down to is pistol shooters getting beat by carbines time wise and they dont really like that

I'm just an A class Production hack. I don't have any delusions of winning HOA and I fully expect to get beat by PCC shooters. That doesn't bother me at all actually.

[ZackJones]

Also, how do they work out the high hit factors for the new division? It's going to be a while before we get a sufficient number of GMs to shoot each of the currency published classifiers.

HHF's will be based on Open, at least initially. That's what Mike Foley said on the USPSA forum.

[Rangerdug]

what it really boils down to is pistol shooters getting beat by carbines time wise and they dont really like that

I'm just an A class Production hack. I don't have any delusions of winning HOA and I fully expect to get beat by PCC shooters. That doesn't bother me at all actually.

Silly Production shooter(xoxo)... seriously, I think you will be surprised how the times aren't going to be that different. Yes the carbines will have stages that they have an advantage, but there will be a lot of stages were they will be a handicap. Like I have said before, that challenge is going to be good for the sport. Form a realistic standpoint, how many carry optics have you seen show up at matches, a couple at most. It will be the same with the carbines. Carbines are expensive, the legal issue is expensive and timely, unless you go the 16" route which you lose the advantage of carbine.

[d_striker]

what it really boils down to is pistol shooters getting beat by carbines time wise and they dont really like that

I'm just an A class Production hack. I don't have any delusions of winning HOA and I fully expect to get beat by PCC shooters. That doesn't bother me at all actually.

Silly Production shooter(xoxo)... seriously, I think you will be surprised how the times aren't going to be that different. Yes the carbines will have stages that they have an advantage, but there will be a lot of stages were they will be a handicap. Like I have said before, that challenge is going to be good for the sport. Form a realistic standpoint, how many carry optics have you seen show up at matches, a couple at most. It will be the same with the carbines. Carbines are expensive, the legal issue is expensive and timely, unless you go the 16" route which you lose the advantage of carbine.

Like I said, I don't care where PCC shooters finish.

And you're right about Carry Optics....I've only seen a few locally and they are already USPSA members. Which is why I was against CO as well. The ones shooting CO at majors I've been to so far this year were already USPSA members also.

It's not going to grow the sport like advocates claimed. Just like PCC won't.

Edited May 1, 2016 by d_striker

[Alaskapopo]

what it really boils down to is pistol shooters getting beat by carbines time wise and they dont really like that

I'm just an A class Production hack. I don't have any delusions of winning HOA and I fully expect to get beat by PCC shooters. That doesn't bother me at all actually.

Silly Production shooter(xoxo)... seriously, I think you will be surprised how the times aren't going to be that different. Yes the carbines will have stages that they have an advantage, but there will be a lot of stages were they will be a handicap. Like I have said before, that challenge is going to be good for the sport. Form a realistic standpoint, how many carry optics have you seen show up at matches, a couple at most. It will be the same with the carbines. Carbines are expensive, the legal issue is expensive and timely, unless you go the 16" route which you lose the advantage of carbine.

Like I said, I don't care where PCC shooters finish.

And you're right about Carry Optics....I've only seen a few locally and they are already USPSA members. Which is why I was against CO as well. The ones shooting CO at majors I've been to so far this year were already USPSA members also.

It's not going to grow the sport like advocates claimed. Just like PCC won't.

It will. You will get people over from three gun. CO did not have that advantage.

Pat

[NickBlasta]

what it really boils down to is pistol shooters getting beat by carbines time wise and they dont really like that

I'm just an A class Production hack. I don't have any delusions of winning HOA and I fully expect to get beat by PCC shooters. That doesn't bother me at all actually.

Silly Production shooter(xoxo)... seriously, I think you will be surprised how the times aren't going to be that different. Yes the carbines will have stages that they have an advantage, but there will be a lot of stages were they will be a handicap. Like I have said before, that challenge is going to be good for the sport. Form a realistic standpoint, how many carry optics have you seen show up at matches, a couple at most. It will be the same with the carbines. Carbines are expensive, the legal issue is expensive and timely, unless you go the 16" route which you lose the advantage of carbine.

Like I said, I don't care where PCC shooters finish.

And you're right about Carry Optics....I've only seen a few locally and they are already USPSA members. Which is why I was against CO as well. The ones shooting CO at majors I've been to so far this year were already USPSA members also.

It's not going to grow the sport like advocates claimed. Just like PCC won't.

It will. You will get people over from three gun. CO did not have that advantage.

Pat

If anything I think CO had the stronger case for attracting 3 gunners. Nobody shoots PCC in 3 gun even though it's offered so it's not like they already own PCCs. But, lots of 3 gunners already use slide mounted red dots.

[Alaskapopo]

No the more prolific USPSA matches give three gunners like me a place to practice with the carbine. Does not have to be the exact same rifle we use in three gun to make the trigger time valuable.

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[Alaskapopo]

Also most three gunners using slide mounted dots are not CCO legal as most are 2011 variants

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[cnote]

CO will keep the aging shooters around when the eyes fail, some people just won't dive into open and it's another option to not lose shooters. It may also attract the youth that are obsessed with technology. Granted, they will want open, and mine could have it when they can purchase one themselves. Production was a hit, CO will be too in do time.

PPC is another can of worms .....,

[d_striker]

Also most three gunners using slide mounted dots are not CCO legal as most are 2011 variants

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We should make a new division for them.

[Alaskapopo]

Also most three gunners using slide mounted dots are not CCO legal as most are 2011 variants

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We should make a new division for them.

If there is enough demand then yes. Unlike you I think we should actually accommodate shooters and grow the sport. I am not afraid of change.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[d_striker]

Please qualify "enough demand."

I'm all for adding divisions that make sense and will truly grow the sport. I don't think we've seen this since Production and SS though.

[StealthyBlagga]

I am a 3-Gun match director. From my own experience, a lot of my customers love shooting action rifle matches, and they shoot 3-Gun solely because it is the only game in town. These people do NOT shoot USPSA handgun matches because they are not interested in pistols. These would, in fact, be completely new customers to USPSA.

Whenever we can find an open date on our range calendar, we jump on it and run rifle-only, rifle-pistol, and most recently PCC matches. The turnout is universally excellent, and demand for more rifle-centric matches continues to be incredibly strong. The problem is that there just are not that many open slots on the range calendar. Unless our pistol match directors are willing to give up one of their dates (which ain't gonna happen), there is little prospect of being able to run a dedicated PCC-only match on any kind of regular basis until we can demonstrate clear and overwhelming demand. Thus, the new PCC division in pistol matches is the only real hope our rifle-lovers will have of a regularly scheduled shooting opportunity.

My hope is that USPSA PCC participation becomes sufficiently strong that we can secure a dedicated PCC match date every month. Until that day, a PCC division at pistol matches is, in my mind, the only reasonable way forward for PCC.

Edited May 2, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[BlueOvalBruin]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

[mrpredictable]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

[Philip Dedmon]

I might have missed this but,,,,, right now in the proposed rules there is no magazines length or capacity limit?

[mrpredictable]

I might have missed this but,,,,, right now in the proposed rules there is no magazines length or capacity limit?

Yup

[BlueOvalBruin]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

I would think there should be. Isn't it pretty challenging to travel across state borders with an SBR? Also, most people don't have access to SBRs.

[Bkreutz]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

I would think there should be. Isn't it pretty challenging to travel across state borders with an SBR? Also, most people don't have access to SBRs.

According to the proposed equipment rules they plan on leaving that up to the competitor.

Special Conditions:

1) Short Barreled Rifles (SBR’s) are permitted provided that the competitor is in full compliance with all state and federal laws and regulations concerning ownership and transport of the SBR.

[fishsticks]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

I would think there should be. Isn't it pretty challenging to travel across state borders with an SBR? Also, most people don't have access to SBRs.

Why exclude those who do have access and understand what's required if/when they travel?

Even though I'm opposed to the inclusion in handgun matches, I can support limiting the equipment rules. If we want involvement, keep equipment rules to the minimum.

[StealthyBlagga]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

I would think there should be. Isn't it pretty challenging to travel across state borders with an SBR? Also, most people don't have access to SBRs.

Actually, most people DO have access to SBRs. They are perfectly legal in almost all states if you are willing to spend the (comparatively paltry) $200 for a stamp and have the patience to wait 6 months for the paperwork. The few states that ban SBRs are the usual suspects.

Edited May 4, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Manwithnoname]

Are the rules going to require a 16" barrel?

The proposed rules do not have a barrel length requirement.

I would think there should be. Isn't it pretty challenging to travel across state borders with an SBR? Also, most people don't have access to SBRs.

Actually, most people DO have access to SBRs. They are perfectly legal in almost all states if you are willing to spend the (comparatively paltry) $200 for a stamp and have the patience to wait 6 months for the paperwork. The few states that ban SBRs are the usual suspects.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11361/download

Fill this form out and send it in. The form can be good for up to a year. Its not at all hard to travel with NFA items. NFA is a lot easier than most people think. Just paper work and waiting if you can get over registering weapons.