motosapiens Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) my suggestion is to have more matches that are focused on 1 or 2 divisions. no one says you have to offer every division. host an awesome match with fun challenging stages, and only have production and SS. Then have another match the following day and only shoot open and limited. i bet a nickel you'll see bigger numbers in those divisions. and where are all these MDs and volunteers going to come from to run all these additional matches? Most of us have enough trouble running one decent USPSA match per month ..... we run two/month at our range. we did the locap-hicap weekend match last year, and if we do it again this year i'll be there to help set up and RO. Where you live might not be as awesome as Idaho, and I apologize for that. Another club also did a 1911-only match (i helped set up and RO), and that was a hoot. Doesn't have to me matches like that every week, but a few every season is worth the effort imho. Edited December 9, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) If I could shoot all A's with a 9mm fast enough to be competitive in a hypothetical Production Division where Major is allowed, I can already do that in Limited. I know two guys who sometimes shoot Limited Minor with guns that, aside from the magazines, would qualify for Production. They do fairly well, but they are M-class shooters, and they are by far in the minority by not shooting Major. If Major PF were allowed in Production, it would drastically change the Division. I'm fine with Production as it is. As to having an "as it comes from the factory" Division, I think that would end up eliminating a lot of sponsorship from manufacturers. You'd probably end up having a few makers that would put out a gun with all the bells and whistles allowed, and they would become the majority of the guns used. All the other makers who have guns that are competitive now in large part due to aftermarket support would fall by the wayside. Either that, or they tool up for a very competition-specific model, and I don't know if USPSA provides enough market for that to be profitable. Edited December 9, 2015 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Ditto for making L10 a category of Limited and leaving SS and Production alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Ditto for making L10 a category of Limited and leaving SS and Production alone.I've asked this before with no answer. At a L2 or L3 how is the category gun division treated during the awards process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Ryder Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) If the highest classifiers scores were actually published, we could look at that data before combining any divisions. By the way, I don't see any advantage in combining any divisions. The goal is to grow the sport. The more shooters we attract, the bigger the sport becomes. Deleting divisions deletes potential shooters IMHO. If there is a financial advantage (saving a but ton of cash) to deleting a division, then we could talk about it. I am in favor of adding a pistol caliber long gun division, because I think it would attract more shooters. However, I do not want to dilute the sport. Maybe we should talk about a max number of divisions to prevent this? What problems do we actually solve by deleting or combining divisions? The biggest problem USPSA has is a marketing issue. I never knew this sport existed until I was in my mid 30s. We should be talking about how to get the word out about how much fun this is! Edited December 10, 2015 by Red Ryder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 It's fine as it is. I'm not sure why this discussion continues. It ain't broken so don't "fix" it. Some shooters have a need for L10. Just because you don't isn't an issue. Production is doing great with its limited customizations. If I was going to eliminate something (and I certainly do not advocate that), it would be Open which is a bizarre non-gun looking contraption which has no purpose except shooting USPSA. Maybe it should be renamed "USPSA" division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. that sounds like a perfect way to kill the sport. I personally would stop shooting and start my own outlaw matches since neither of those divisions holds the slightest interest for me. Agreed. Box stock is a stupid idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) you guys make me laugh .... eliminate a USPSA division because the guns used in that division are only good for that division .... I must have missed the memo on having mandatory multi-purpose firearms for USPSA competitions .... 'box stock' is stupid because what? shooting a gun as it was built by the manufacturer is too hard? seems like a great test of shooting skill to me and I thought someone who has been around USPSA for a long time said the sport began as just 2 divisions (open & stock) ... you want to cast the widest net of shooters? allow one group to do what they want to their guns & another to use stock guns and you include everyone ... except those crazy Revo shooters of course ... Edited December 11, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 you guys make me laugh .... eliminate a USPSA division because the guns used in that division are only good for that division .... I must have missed the memo on having mandatory multi-purpose firearms for USPSA competitions .... 'box stock' is stupid because what? shooting a gun as it was built by the manufacturer is too hard? seems like a great test of shooting skill to me and I thought someone who has been around USPSA for a long time said the sport began as just 2 divisions (open & stock) ... you want to cast the widest net of shooters? allow one group to do what they want to their guns & another to use stock guns and you include everyone ... except those crazy Revo shooters of course ... It is a stupid idea because it forces you to configure your pistol in a way that you wouldn't otherwise want. Factory recoil springs also don't work well with minor ammo. If you go that way, better off just saying everyone has to use a glock 17. I don't want a shitty trigger or plastic sights so now I have to compete against $5k comped and rds guns? It is a silly idea. Production is exactly how it should be. Reasonable modifications, but still not that "racey". Most production guns are just box stock with f/o sights and spring changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 2 Divisions: Open: do whatever you want to your gun within a broad set of guidelines Factory: a list of guns that qualify with no mods ... as the gun comes from the factory, period. I currently only shoot 3 gun but I would like to dabble in USPSA when spare time becomes a reality and my money tree out back starts bearing fruit. This idea would permanently keep me out of USPSA. Its dumb as hell. Are CZ TS's going to be on the same "box stock" list as an M&P? Because guess which one everyone will suddenly need to be competitive. What happens when you put an Apex trigger part in your M&P to make it suck less? Now your shooting against the SVI's that currently dominate Open and always will regardless of how many average guns are suddenly bumped into Open. And don't get into the "it's the indian not the arrow" conversation because this is an equipment/division thread not a skills one. A Beretta 92 with VZ grips should not have to run against real open guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Wesquire pretty much beat me to it. Let's not forget that almost all USPSA shooters would have to buy new guns, as there current ones have almost certainly been internally polished. I just thought of a way to make it work though! Subdivisions! Box Stock: Shitty Guns Box Stock: Good Guns Box Stock: Great Guns Open Light: $2k cap Open Heavy: $4k cap Open Gangsta: whatever the hell you want as long as it's gold plated! But now we have more divisions then before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 you guys make me laugh .... eliminate a USPSA division because the guns used in that division are only good for that division .... I must have missed the memo on having mandatory multi-purpose firearms for USPSA competitions .... 'box stock' is stupid because what? shooting a gun as it was built by the manufacturer is too hard? seems like a great test of shooting skill to me and I thought someone who has been around USPSA for a long time said the sport began as just 2 divisions (open & stock) ... you want to cast the widest net of shooters? allow one group to do what they want to their guns & another to use stock guns and you include everyone ... except those crazy Revo shooters of course ... Nope. At the beginning there was only a single division -- which didn't even have a name. Then later -- possibly after someone threw a dot on a blaster -- Limited was created..... and the great arms races were off..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Nope. At the beginning there was only a single division -- which didn't even have a name. Then later -- possibly after someone threw a dot on a blaster -- Limited was created..... and the great arms races were off..... Dots were out for a little bit before anyone won Nats with one. At first they were cool toys, but reading some historical front sight articles even top level shooters never thought they would be anything but cool toys - there was no way shooting a dot would be faster than iron sights. Edited December 11, 2015 by peterthefish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R34PER Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 You know having listen to all of these debates and conversations about divisions being removed, as well as, people shitting all over divisions such as L10 seems to stem mainly from Production shooters. All the forums, the podcasts, the conversations at matches, and so on it's always the Production guys. I've never heard an Open, Limited, Limited 10, Revolver, or Single Stack shooter doing this. Sure they all jump in with their two cents once it starts, but Production shooters seem to be the main instigators. Just my two cents having read through a nauseating amount of this garbage. I started this thread to hopefuly have a constructive conversation of an idea that was postulated on PowerFactor, but it just devolved yet again into the same BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 'box stock' is stupid because what? shooting a gun as it was built by the manufacturer is too hard? seems like a great test of shooting skill to me and I thought someone who has been around USPSA for a long time said the sport began as just 2 divisions (open & stock) ... It might be a good test of skill, it just wouldn't be any fun for most of us, so we wouldn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 you guys make me laugh .... eliminate a USPSA division because the guns used in that division are only good for that division .... I must have missed the memo on having mandatory multi-purpose firearms for USPSA competitions .... 'box stock' is stupid because what? shooting a gun as it was built by the manufacturer is too hard? seems like a great test of shooting skill to me and I thought someone who has been around USPSA for a long time said the sport began as just 2 divisions (open & stock) ... you want to cast the widest net of shooters? allow one group to do what they want to their guns & another to use stock guns and you include everyone ... except those crazy Revo shooters of course ... Nope. At the beginning there was only a single division -- which didn't even have a name. Then later -- possibly after someone threw a dot on a blaster -- Limited was created..... and the great arms races were off..... From the 1978 rules: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 You know having listen to all of these debates and conversations about divisions being removed, as well as, people shitting all over divisions such as L10 seems to stem mainly from Production shooters. All the forums, the podcasts, the conversations at matches, and so on it's always the Production guys. I've never heard an Open, Limited, Limited 10, Revolver, or Single Stack shooter doing this. Sure they all jump in with their two cents once it starts, but Production shooters seem to be the main instigators. Just my two cents having read through a nauseating amount of this garbage. I started this thread to hopefuly have a constructive conversation of an idea that was postulated on PowerFactor, but it just devolved yet again into the same BS. You won't hear it from me. Had I kept my P220, I would have been grateful for Lim-10 to give me a Division in which to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Nope. At the beginning there was only a single division -- which didn't even have a name. Then later -- possibly after someone threw a dot on a blaster -- Limited was created..... and the great arms races were off..... Dots were out for a little bit before anyone won Nats with one. At first they were cool toys, but reading some historical front sight articles even top level shooters never thought they would be anything but cool toys - there was no way shooting a dot would be faster than iron sights. that's because first generation dots were expensive , large -heavy and in general worked intermittently.... T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Nope. At the beginning there was only a single division -- which didn't even have a name. Then later -- possibly after someone threw a dot on a blaster -- Limited was created..... and the great arms races were off..... Dots were out for a little bit before anyone won Nats with one. At first they were cool toys, but reading some historical front sight articles even top level shooters never thought they would be anything but cool toys - there was no way shooting a dot would be faster than iron sights. that's because first generation dots were expensive , large -heavy and in general worked intermittently.... TAnd leave it alone , it not broken. L10 is a great catch all division for someone to jump into USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 As one of the vilified godawful outcast L10 shooters, I have thought long and hard for an answer. And I think I have it. Cost effective and reloads will be mandatory. Single shot percussion, or flintlock action, limited to 5 round course of fire. Limited division will be 6 shot black powder only, cylinder changes allowed. Open division will allow modern .45 Colt Peacemakers, (or Italian Clones), and the use of substitute black powder will be permitted.. Problem Solved......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunDQ Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Uuuuuh yeah, I thought there were only two divisions; limited and open.?!?!?!? There are more?!! Wtf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunDQ Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Limited 10 is a political division not recognized in my state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 As one of the vilified godawful outcast L10 shooters, I have thought long and hard for an answer. And I think I have it. Cost effective and reloads will be mandatory. Single shot percussion, or flintlock action, limited to 5 round course of fire. Limited division will be 6 shot black powder only, cylinder changes allowed. Open division will allow modern .45 Colt Peacemakers, (or Italian Clones), and the use of substitute black powder will be permitted.. Problem Solved......... that's the sort of thinking one would expect from an L10 shooter. Y'all probably still ride horses to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckley Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 "Why not eliminate Production/Single Stack and combine them into Limited 10?" It sounds like a terrible idea to me. Production guns are not equal to L10 guns. Production shooters are not on even footing with L10 shooters. And, I am not sure what "problem" is being fixed here. I shoot Production and am not sure why I should compete directly against L10 hardware at a match. Is that considered fair and even? I just have to add that I find it odd that Rick is so passionate and long winded on the subject (he speaks for most of the video). He seems like a nice guy and all but he hasn't posted a USPSA classifier in over 3.5 years. If online records are correct, he has not posted any Production classifiers. So, it seems as though he has little or no "skin in the game" on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R34PER Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 Buckley: Couldn't it be also said that Production shooters who never shoot L10 are the most long winded about getting rid of L10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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