USPSA's Value Proposition

[Youngeyes]

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification? Can't you just say you don't want to belong without doing the same 5 paragraphs? And why does it always have to be,"what's in it for me?" Like somebody said, it's $40. You'll spend that much on wings and a few beers for lunch without question.

If you want to join, join. If you don't, don't.

Some people just like to see themselves in a thread. It doesn't matter what was wrote, it had been already been written in many, many posts.

Hi!!

[TJART]

Excellent topic.

I suffered an injury that no longer allowed me to golf. I needed another hobby and literally jumped into USPSA overnight (well, 10 days to be precise ). Picked up a CZ, ordered all the gear from Amazon, and... purchased a USPSA membership; I thought I NEEDED it to shoot (not enough research on my part about shooting a match). My local club puts on 28 matches a year, of which, 4 are steel challenges. $35 non-member, $25 member.

If I had it to do over again, I would have save my money and buy ammo to practice with, instead of a USPSA annual membership. What does my membership get me in a way that benefits me or provides me some sort of service other than seeing the same PractisSores my club uploads?

My very first match, I shot with six other guys; three open, one SS, and two production. Only three had USPSA numbers and the others were just there to shoot - regulars, though. It seemed to me, in my observation/opinion, they only had classifications to "support the sport." The comradery was there, regardless. A couple of guys asked my experience and gave me some great advice/pointers heading into, and after stages. No one asked my classification or registration number (except at registration).

I finished 26/48 overall, combined, and had a great time. I don't see how my experience would have been any different if I was a non-member. I think USPSA needs to find a legitimate reason for existence.

Edit: I read a few comments about having a website to go to, rule download, etc. Here is a realistic fact of my generation; the only research we do (that's not journalistic citations), are YOUTUBE. We find gear, rules, FPS, etc... basically everything we need to know about USPSA. The only reason I went to the USPSA website was to get the phone number so I could get my reg. number the night before a match.

Sounds like you should just go shoot outlaw matches so you don't have to worry having a standard set of rules, trained and certified ROs to look after your safety, a classification system enabling you to compare yourself to anyone else in the country ... Etc

If you're just a casual shooter and not serious about competition I'm not as hard over about individuals being members as long as sanctioned matches charge more for non members to shoot. I'm much more concerned bout clubs not being affiliated but then run 'USPSA-like' matches, effectively stealing the intellectual property of USPSA ....

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification? Can't you just say you don't want to belong without doing the same 5 paragraphs? And why does it always have to be,"what's in it for me?" Like somebody said, it's $40. You'll spend that much on wings and a few beers for lunch without question.

If you want to join, join. If you don't, don't.

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification? Can't you just say you don't want to belong without doing the same 5 paragraphs? And why does it always have to be,"what's in it for me?" Like somebody said, it's $40. You'll spend that much on wings and a few beers for lunch without question.

If you want to join, join. If you don't, don't.

Some people just like to see themselves in a thread. It doesn't matter what was wrote, it had been already been written in many, many posts.

Ohhh, you guys are the crybabies a couple people warned me about, in the "Hitler banned from the Brian Enos forums" video. Got it!

[Just4FunLP]

Yea. I hate it when people go on and on.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Can't I just say I like to belong without 5 paragraphs of justification?

Some people just like to see themselves in a thread.

Hi!!

I have to disagree - I'll send in my obligatory 5 paragraphs tomorrow. :bow:

[Just4FunLP]

Yea. I hate it when people go on and on.

Referring to myself of course. Let me know when I start bogging down the Internet.

[Sarge]

Never mind

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sarge

[teros135]

People of "my generation" just learn everything from YouTube? That's on the Internet, right? Where everything is true (you're not allow to post anything on the Internet that's not true, right?)? The "me first, me last, me at all costs" generation? Yeah, right.

Some of us pay our dues before we feel we have a right to criticize. You folks? Never.

[TJART]

People of "my generation" just learn everything from YouTube? That's on the Internet, right? Where everything is true (you're not allow to post anything on the Internet that's not true, right?)? The "me first, me last, me at all costs" generation? Yeah, right.

Some of us pay our dues before we feel we have a right to criticize. You folks? Never.

Never mind

Edited November 28, 2015 by TJART

[Steve RA]

[Youngeyes]

[9x45]

Two Wild and Crazy Guys!

[teros135]

I'm very much in favor of having national organizations that represent and structure various activities, including sports. USPSA is our national organization and provides the "reason for being" for action pistol competition. This is our sport and USPSA is our national representative. I get a lot from what is offered, I'm proud to be a member and pleased to shoot at several fine clubs that operate under the USPSA banner. I'm much less comfortable at "good old Joe" matches, where they feel kind of unstructured and sloppy and you never know what they're going to do, or why. I can't imagine action shooting being anywhere near where it is without a national governing/representative body.

No, USPSA isn't perfect, and there will always be detractors, some folks that are dissatisfied, internal and external politics, and plain-ole "naysayers" stirring the pot. It would be best if those folks got involved and worked to make it better, at the local level or higher, instead of just complaining and endless discussions of what's "wrong". I've been told by a presidential candidate that there are indeed many things that need fixing, and he's wanting to fix them. Good for him - he's DOING something. We should, too.

Don't forget this is a volunteer sport, at all levels. There are too few who do and too many who just "shoot and scoot", take advantage of those who do the work. Come in and help set up a 5-6 stage, 32-round per stage match sometime and experience the work and the wonder of what it takes to put a match on. Your help is appreciated, and it's what makes the matches possible. Join USPSA, shoot the Level II matches (they're wonderful fun!), and be a part of the larger sport. It's definitely worth our while.

(Edited to finish post after fat-fingering the "save" button . Amazing I can get a mag into the gun!)

Edited November 28, 2015 by teros135

[Steve RA]

I agree, good post !!!

[sperman]

Don't forget this is a volunteer sport, at all levels.

But it's not a volunteer sport at all levels. There are many people getting paid for the work they do. Some at the highest levels are are doing a terrible job, and the "volunteers" that are supposed to oversee them are failing in their responsibilities.

I'm not advocating for clubs to drop out of USPSA, but you have to understand why some people are upset. I guess I'm just a naysayer stirring the pot because I think our national organization should be run like the industry leader that it is, or at least was.

[Nimitz]

I'm very much in favor of having national organizations that represent and structure various activities, including sports. USPSA is our national organization and provides the "reason for being" for action pistol competition. This is our sport and USPSA is our national representative. I get a lot from what is offered, I'm proud to be a member and pleased to shoot at several fine clubs that operate under the USPSA banner. I'm much less comfortable at "good old Joe" matches, where they feel kind of unstructured and sloppy and you never know what they're going to do, or why. I can't imagine action shooting being anywhere near where it is without a national governing/representative body.

No, USPSA isn't perfect, and there will always be detractors, some folks that are dissatisfied, internal and external politics, and plain-ole "naysayers" stirring the pot. It would be best if those folks got involved and worked to make it better, at the local level or higher, instead of just complaining and endless discussions of what's "wrong". I've been told by a presidential candidate that there are indeed many things that need fixing, and he's wanting to fix them. Good for him - he's DOING something. We should, too.

Don't forget this is a volunteer sport, at all levels. There are too few who do and too many who just "shoot and scoot", take advantage of those who do the work. Come in and help set up a 5-6 stage, 32-round per stage match sometime and experience the work and the wonder of what it takes to put a match on. Your help is appreciated, and it's what makes the matches possible. Join USPSA, shoot the Level II matches (they're wonderful fun!), and be a part of the larger sport. It's definitely worth our while.

(Edited to finish post after fat-fingering the "save" button . Amazing I can get a mag into the gun!)

I feel compelled to point out that the above is only 3 paragraphs ....

But your points are well taken ...

[9x45]

I'm very much in favor of having national organizations that represent and structure various activities, including sports. USPSA is our national organization and provides the "reason for being" for action pistol competition. This is our sport and USPSA is our national representative. I get a lot from what is offered, I'm proud to be a member and pleased to shoot at several fine clubs that operate under the USPSA banner.

(Edited to finish post after fat-fingering the "save" button . Amazing I can get a mag into the gun!)

Well said sir! It's all about the bloody shooting, then, isn't it! Keep a stiff upper lip, and don't let the beggars get you down.

Edited November 29, 2015 by 9x45

[Nimitz]

Are we going to get a sub machine gun provisional division too? Cool! I hope it won't have a silly weight limit like CO ...

Edited November 29, 2015 by Nimitz

[ES13Raven]

Politics aside, isn't that what IDPA does? Do we have any IDPA shooters that can chime in on how it works over there?

Yes, IDPA rules say after your first match - you are required to join. Is that really enforced? It depends on the club.

The 2 closest IDPA clubs, about 1/4 to 1/3 are actually current members. Most shooters are not going to Sanctioned matches and don't see the value in the fee. The clubs look the other way.

On the other hand, Sacramento IDPA regularly gets 120 shooters per monthly match and sells out early. They require shooters to pass an intro clinic and be a current IDPA member.

Edited November 30, 2015 by ES13Raven

[3gunDQ]

who would have thought that IDPA have a rule in their alll incomasing rule book that states after your first match you are required to join, thats funny :roflol:as if a first time shooter sat down and read the 300 pages of IDPA rules.

[9x45]

The after shooting one match and join the IDPA rule has been there since the beginning, course the first rule book was only about 7 pages back then, but it all depends on the club. When I ran Apple Valley IDPA we would let them get 3 matches under their belt to make sure they were hooked. That was our value proposition.

Edited November 30, 2015 by 9x45

[9x45]

Are we going to get a sub machine gun provisional division too? Cool!

Is that really in front of the board?

[Ara]

I believe everyone that shoots regularly should join USPSA just in order to keep the organization existing. The fee is not much to ask and it's used to benefit all of us as a whole. However, an area that is being overlooked is the unintended consequences of USPSA's decisions in the number of divisions and its impact. I had to re-assess my life five years ago based on costs (trippled over the last seven years) and other factors and now I just shoot local matches instead of Area and Nats. Even then, I reached a point of diminished returns mainly because even attending a local match with about "60" shooters (sounds good, right?) does not provide a real challenge anymore. I am a "true" GM and I need someone, alot of shooters actually, to try to kick my butt. That's why I go...for the test. Those "60" shooters are now usually broke down to about 15-20 in Limited, 15-20 in Production and the rest divided amongst the rest of all the other divisions we have created. Ask yourself, is 5-10 shooters in a division really a competition? "Back in the day" when we had 2 Divisions, one would compete against 30-40 shooters. Some of us also remember when we had only one Division (wasn't really a "Division") but I'm not advocating for that either. The answer is not, per se, get more shooters. It may be for a smaller club, but in larger areas, having more then 80 shooters at a club match can be exhausting, especially for those that have to drive a distance. Add to this, the prolifiration of less than quality stages, say...."bubble gum". That's right, I said it...and you have exclusion. Exclusion of thousands of other shooters who didn't want the bubble gum virus spreading in our sport. USPSA has made its stand clear by making certain decisions, based on rules instead of Principles and I believe those choices have made an impact. USPSA is now all over the place (what I call MPD...Multiple Personality Disorder) instead of a solid straight path.

So I look at the "value" of joining differently. I look at it as more of the value of "competing". What is "USPSA" doing, or doing that is detremental to the value of me joining and competing.

[ES13Raven]

But how do you run any USPSA/Steel Challenge/IDPA "Type" match without being affiliated? Example: oh, yea, our club runs a USPSA like match, we use their rules and their targets, but we don't pay match fees or club dues and course classifiers don't count, but it's still almost a USPSA match. Fine, just don't call it a USPSA match then, call it what it is then. Make up you own local rules for gear/divisions/classed and use straight point plus time scoring. Doesn't mean that it isn't a good match, but it is not a USPSA match.

We have a USPSA club that puts on 2 monthly matches, and one steel challenge match. Price is $25, or $20 if you are a member of the club. No discounts for being a USPSA member. They get about 50-60 shooters per match, and about 2/3 of the shooters are current USPSA members. There are 1-2 certified ROs that I know of. Squads choose their own RO from within the squad.

We also have a club nearby that runs a 4-stage "USPSA style" run and gun match for $20. They use USPSA rules, targets, practiscore etc. They do have the freedom to make "non legal" stages, which can be fun. They get about 30-40 shooters per match, and about 1/2 to 2/3 of them are current USPSA members.

[teros135]

I believe everyone that shoots regularly should join USPSA just in order to keep the organization existing. The fee is not much to ask and it's used to benefit all of us as a whole. However, an area that is being overlooked is the unintended consequences of USPSA's decisions in the number of divisions and its impact. I had to re-assess my life five years ago based on costs (trippled over the last seven years) and other factors and now I just shoot local matches instead of Area and Nats. Even then, I reached a point of diminished returns mainly because even attending a local match with about "60" shooters (sounds good, right?) does not provide a real challenge anymore. I am a "true" GM and I need someone, alot of shooters actually, to try to kick my butt. That's why I go...for the test. Those "60" shooters are now usually broke down to about 15-20 in Limited, 15-20 in Production and the rest divided amongst the rest of all the other divisions we have created. Ask yourself, is 5-10 shooters in a division really a competition? "Back in the day" when we had 2 Divisions, one would compete against 30-40 shooters. Some of us also remember when we had only one Division (wasn't really a "Division") but I'm not advocating for that either. The answer is not, per se, get more shooters. It may be for a smaller club, but in larger areas, having more then 80 shooters at a club match can be exhausting, especially for those that have to drive a distance. Add to this, the prolifiration of less than quality stages, say...."bubble gum". That's right, I said it...and you have exclusion. Exclusion of thousands of other shooters who didn't want the bubble gum virus spreading in our sport. USPSA has made its stand clear by making certain decisions, based on rules instead of Principles and I believe those choices have made an impact. USPSA is now all over the place (what I call MPD...Multiple Personality Disorder) instead of a solid straight path.

So I look at the "value" of joining differently. I look at it as more of the value of "competing". What is "USPSA" doing, or doing that is detremental to the value of me joining and competing.

I guess I don't get how USPSA is keeping a GM from having enough competition at their level. There are only just over 100 GMs each in Open, Prod, and Limited, probably spread over the U.S. How is USPSA responsible for providing competition for them?

[Chills1994]

I believe everyone that shoots regularly should join USPSA just in order to keep the organization existing. The fee is not much to ask and it's used to benefit all of us as a whole. However, an area that is being overlooked is the unintended consequences of USPSA's decisions in the number of divisions and its impact. I had to re-assess my life five years ago based on costs (trippled over the last seven years) and other factors and now I just shoot local matches instead of Area and Nats. Even then, I reached a point of diminished returns mainly because even attending a local match with about "60" shooters (sounds good, right?) does not provide a real challenge anymore. I am a "true" GM and I need someone, alot of shooters actually, to try to kick my butt. That's why I go...for the test. Those "60" shooters are now usually broke down to about 15-20 in Limited, 15-20 in Production and the rest divided amongst the rest of all the other divisions we have created. Ask yourself, is 5-10 shooters in a division really a competition? "Back in the day" when we had 2 Divisions, one would compete against 30-40 shooters. Some of us also remember when we had only one Division (wasn't really a "Division") but I'm not advocating for that either. The answer is not, per se, get more shooters. It may be for a smaller club, but in larger areas, having more then 80 shooters at a club match can be exhausting, especially for those that have to drive a distance. Add to this, the prolifiration of less than quality stages, say...."bubble gum". That's right, I said it...and you have exclusion. Exclusion of thousands of other shooters who didn't want the bubble gum virus spreading in our sport. USPSA has made its stand clear by making certain decisions, based on rules instead of Principles and I believe those choices have made an impact. USPSA is now all over the place (what I call MPD...Multiple Personality Disorder) instead of a solid straight path.

So I look at the "value" of joining differently. I look at it as more of the value of "competing". What is "USPSA" doing, or doing that is detremental to the value of me joining and competing.

I guess I don't get how USPSA is keeping a GM from having enough competition at their level. There are only just over 100 GMs each in Open, Prod, and Limited, probably spread over the U.S. How is USPSA responsible for providing competition for them?

Let's say the pool of talent or skill is only so deep.

When you divide that pool over...what? Seven divisions now?...then the talent or skill per division is less or gets watered down.

Said another way, in theory, you would have to be more motivated to climb to the top of two divisions versus being able to hide out in one of 7 divisions...requiring less skill, less effort, and less preparation.