USPSA's Value Proposition

[kevinj308]

To the OP, if the clubs are USPSA and charge enough for non members then I think membership would go up.

Why do the clubs want to be affiliated?

[9x45]

Pat, actually not 10, Norco, Prado, Palm Springs, Gopher Flats, and Oceanside, the rest are clubs operating 2 or more matches, that's all. Several clubs share the same location. And many of these same clubs run non-sanctioned action pistol matches, notably Palm Springs and West End.

Edited November 25, 2015 by 9x45

[kevinj308]

Why do we care if casual shooters are USPSA members. I'm sure virtually all of my annual dues pay for my front sight subscription.

USPSA still sees the activity fees from non-members, and they do not need to provide them any services. Win-win.

Not if the club's not USPSA, most in my neighborhood aren't.

Your profile says you're in Los Angeles, I ran a search and found 10 USPSA clubs in a 90 mile radius of LA.

http://www.uspsa.org/locate-uspsa-clubs.php

Just to be clear I punched in my zip code, and actual matches are 4. Closest is 44 miles, and some horrific traffic to and from.

Easily 75 to 150 shooters every weekend in my "neighborhood" depending on who's running a match at Piru. No USPSA present.

Get the clubs affiliated and USPSA gets involved with the shooters. My .02

[Brooke]

Several have posted my thoughts, but I'll join in. USPSA and other competitive shooting organizations provide a standard set of rules so we can compare what we are scoring with all shooters most of whom we will never see. They provide trained RO's and stage design design criteria which is a huge value for safety of participants.

For those who want to improve (and compare their performance) the classification system exists. It may have flaws, but it beats total chaos. The magazine is sometimes interesting, but you don't have to pay for it. Get the $25 membership if you wish to save.

My club charges $20 for a local match with a $5 discount for local club members. I definitely would like to see that changed to charge an additional fee for non-USPSA members. I would easily support +$5 and maybe +$10. That way non-members would join or quit. Either is acceptable to me. If you don't want to belong, why do you want to come?

There is value in organization over blasting away with crazy rules or no rules.

Will Mike Foley improve the organization's image, value to locals, and membership? I think so. He is a pretty persuasive guy with some good ideas. Most importantly he recognizes the value of local members because they are the heart of the organization. National matches and championships are interesting, but they involve few members of the total. The money is locally based and I think Mr. Foley knows that is the foundation of the organization. I hope so anyway.

I believe things are very healthy in my local area.

[Nik Habicht]

Off the top of my head in about ten seconds:

Stable and mature ruleset -- that realistically deals with both safety concerns and competitive equity

NROI

Front Sight -- do I love it cover to cover every month? Nope -- but I don't read anything else that provides that either, and I always pull some useful tidbits of info from each issue.

Knowing what I'm getting when I register for a USPSA match

$5 discount on match fee -- in the Mid-Atlantic Section at least.

If your club is having difficulty laying out $3 for match fees per shooter, it's time to bump what you charge by $5 across the board.

[Youngeyes]

FWIW. I get to wear the colors of people I admire and are friends with. It makes me feel part of a larger group. I guess it's like the feeling of being in the service. I can go anywhere wearing the USPSA colors and have an immediate connection with shooters I've never met. They know that I adhere to certain standards of safe and competitive shooting. That's it's value to me. Just sayin'

[Hi-Power Jack]

If a shooter attends a handful of local matches each year, its not worth the cost to be a member.

near zero value in being an affiliated club.

USPSA does a good job of taking advantage of these people and clubs.

+1. I dropped out about three years ago - haven't missed a thing, to date.

[Brooke]

If a shooter attends a handful of local matches each year, its not worth the cost to be a member.

near zero value in being an affiliated club.

USPSA does a good job of taking advantage of these people and clubs.

+1. I dropped out about three years ago - haven't missed a thing, to date.

Do you shoot local matches at affiliate clubs or have you just quit competition all together?

[Chills1994]

Supposedly, back when USPSA first bought the Steel Challenge, a local match director at this club which had already been running steel challenge type matches for like 10 years before got a call from then USPSA President Michael Voigt. Voigt asked him, supposedly, about becoming an affiliated Steel Challenge club.

The answer was not just "NO!", but "HELL NO!"

[Chills1994]

The problem with USPSA membership goes well beyond what the Shooters see in Value from their annual dues. Currently the value provided to a USPSA member is really limited to the Classification system, access to attend Level 2+ major matches, and the Front Sight magazine. To determine value It all depends on the match frequency a shooter has and wanting their skill level "Ranked". If a shooter only attends a handful of local club matches each year, then its really not worth the cost to be a member. Realistically, if someone only attended one USPSA match a month their annual membership fee costs them $3.33 a match, which is chump change in the big picture really. The Front Sight magazine alone, regardless of the quality of it, would justify an extra $3.33 each match in my opinion.

The bigger problem I see is there being near zero value in being an affiliated club. Annual club affiliation fee is $50, then classifier and mission count fee's are $3 per shooter per match. If you host 10 club matches a year with an average of 50 shooters that is $1550 in fee's paid to USPSA for what in return? The clubs only value in being USPSA affiliated is a Rule set, Classifiers, ability to market USPSA sanctioned events, and some really crappy scoring tools (EzWinScore and Online Squading if you host a Level 2 or above Match). As the original poster mentioned a club could NOT be USPSA affiliated and basically save themselves $1500 a year right off the top.

Given how many affiliated clubs there are there is a CRAP TON of money flowing into USPSA every weekend from Mission Count and Classifier fee's alone.

There are a lot of super dedicated people in this sport that really bust their hump to make USPSA matches happen. 99% of the time these dedicated people are donating their time and effort to make it all happen as well. Unfortunately USPSA does a really good job of taking advantage of these people and clubs. As a match director myself I some times wonder if our club would be better off without being an affiliated USPSA club. I can think of a lot of better use our $1550 in annual USPSA fee's are currently going towards. If I took that same amount of money and used it as a cash payback to the shooters based on match performance it would improve my matches attendance more than being an affiliated USPSA club.

Pretty good business model, eh?

Have other people do like 95% of the work and then collect about 10% .

About the only thing you left out, though, was when the sections get to dole out those national match slots. That has value, right?

Slight thread drift...

you know how some clubs will run a point series for a year. Each competitor earns so many odd points for each match they attend, or how high they place.

Maybe it would be worthwhile for USPSA HQ to consider something like for clubs...maybe like a sales commission...at the end of the year, the club wins either cash back, or gets props like Texas stars or full size poppers.

Just throwing that out there as an idea.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Chills1994

[9x45]

Steel Challenge was never the same after Dalton and Fischman sold it, but in the day it was huge! Even now the West Coast Steel is fairly big. We run several steel only matches in Palm Springs, including the Steel Challenge, and now the West Coast. But how do you run any USPSA/Steel Challenge/IDPA "Type" match without being affiliated? Example: oh, yea, our club runs a USPSA like match, we use their rules and their targets, but we don't pay match fees or club dues and course classifiers don't count, but it's still almost a USPSA match. Fine, just don't call it a USPSA match then, call it what it is then. Make up you own local rules for gear/divisions/classed and use straight point plus time scoring. Doesn't mean that it isn't a good match, but it is not a USPSA match.

So I think it boils down to value you get from shooting a competition match, sanctioned or not. I am lucky enough to live within 38-70 miles of several sanctioned USPSA matches and club level matches. But when you shoot a sanctioned USPSA match, you know what you are going to get, pretty much across all clubs.

[Nimitz]

I would see nothing wrong with requiring USPSA membership to shoot a USPSA match or significantly raising the fees collected for non members shooting matches which should force clubs to charge a lot higher match fee for nonmembers. At my club you cannot be a member (of the club) without joining the NRA, period. Same should go for USPSA. You like shooting USPSA matches? Great, you get to shoot your 1st one without membership, then you must join ...

The flip side of course is that USPSA needs to step up as well and there have been some good suggestions here which I hope those who suggested them will take 2 mins and email them to Mike foley ...

[Gooldylocks]

I would see nothing wrong with requiring USPSA membership to shoot a USPSA match or significantly raising the fees collected for non members shooting matches which should force clubs to charge a lot higher match fee for nonmembers. At my club you cannot be a member (of the club) without joining the NRA, period. Same should go for USPSA. You like shooting USPSA matches? Great, you get to shoot your 1st one without membership, then you must join ...

The flip side of course is that USPSA needs to step up as well and there have been some good suggestions here which I hope those who suggested them will take 2 mins and email them to Mike foley ...

I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of your range then....

Politics aside, isn't that what IDPA does? Do we have any IDPA shooters that can chime in on how it works over there? I wouldn't be opposed to having your first one or 2 be freebies then after that you have to join.

The value I see (as what I would call a pretty normal competitor, I mostly shoot locals and a couple L2, maybe 1 L3 next year) is the classification system, the rules, and the RO's. Most notably the classification system, which to me seems like it could be way better.

What is keeping them from running the classifier system weekly? Daily, even? It's a big computer program that takes time to run, but even big statical analysis programs generally only take minutes to hours, just run it over night! (Not to mention that having a smaller stack of scores that have to be run would speed up the program)

I don't care about the magazine so I get the cheaper membership and save myself a couple extra bucks.

I am not a match director, but it seems like having a source for cheaper steel available for clubs would definitely be at least some incentive at the club level. I know at my home range we use pretty much every popper every match.

[Hi-Power Jack]

If a shooter attends a handful of local matches each year, its not worth the cost to be a member.

+1. I dropped out about three years ago - haven't missed a thing, to date.

Do you shoot local matches at affiliate clubs or have you just quit competition all together?

I've been shooting USPSA, MultiGun and some action steel shoots, mostly

at CFRPC, here in Orlando.

[Chills1994]

Steel Challenge was never the same after Dalton and Fischman sold it, but in the day it was huge! Even now the West Coast Steel is fairly big. We run several steel only matches in Palm Springs, including the Steel Challenge, and now the West Coast. But how do you run any USPSA/Steel Challenge/IDPA "Type" match without being affiliated? Example: oh, yea, our club runs a USPSA like match, we use their rules and their targets, but we don't pay match fees or club dues and course classifiers don't count, but it's still almost a USPSA match. Fine, just don't call it a USPSA match then, call it what it is then. Make up you own local rules for gear/divisions/classed and use straight point plus time scoring. Doesn't mean that it isn't a good match, but it is not a USPSA match.

So I think it boils down to value you get from shooting a competition match, sanctioned or not. I am lucky enough to live within 38-70 miles of several sanctioned USPSA matches and club level matches. But when you shoot a sanctioned USPSA match, you know what you are going to get, pretty much across all clubs.

The same way I shot an IDPA style match every Tuesday night all through 2006 and most of 2007.

What rules do you really need to have to run an outlaw match:

1. don't break the 180

2. don't drop your gun

3. pay attention to the range officer's commands

4. shoot the targets as or when you see them

5. stay within these shooting boxes or boundaries when engaging targets

6. this is run as a cold/warm/hot range (circle one)

It's not like anybody is going to win a brand new Chevy truck at a local match, outlaw or not.

EDIT: the whole time I shot those Tuesday night IDPA style matches, I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting myself into. I never once felt like I got the shaft. If I did, I am adult enough to bring up why I got a case of the butthurt. And if I got really butthurt, then I would just stop shooting their match. Pretty simple, really.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Chills1994

[3gunDQ]

If you dropped USPSA I would drop your match like a bad habit. USPSA is a game with uniform rules no matter where you shoot it.... I practice specifically for this type of competion, so if you are offering a watered down version of whatever the hell you want then enjoy yourself. I would rather just practice for USPSA.

The memebership is a small fee, less than 100 rounds of 40. If you can't see the value in that you are way behind. Do you complain about paying your light bill?

[bikerburgess]

one item I keep seeing mentioned is the RO's, I agree that having a bunch of trained RO's is great, but don't kid yourself about them being supplied by USPSA.

USPSA charges $40 per student to take the level 1 RO class plus they charge for travel and Per Diem for the instructor.

I think that is crazy, if the organizations value is mostly in its rules and RO's then it should not charge its volunteers

Edited November 25, 2015 by bikerburgess

[rhebert]

I was the guy who ran the steel matches in Missouri for over 10 years.

The issue I had at the time was there wasnt a classification system.

So what drives the new shooters in USPSA is the classifier system, With no system at the time what was in it for our shooters, nothing !

Also with steel challenge are the stages, shooting the same 8 stages are boring to most, we had at the time 32 different stages that provides variety and interest.

Jim who runs the west coast steel is an old friend and they have mixed up the stages and its much better.

[BSeevers]

USPSA brings fair consistent rules, Certified RO's, National footprint and recognition. I can explain to laymen that I shoot a recognized nationally sanctioned legitimate sports competition.

Without this I could be just shooting refrigerators at the dump and call it a competition. I have seen what lack of National sanctioning can do to the shooting sport. It then becomes a dictatorship, at the worst. I remember going to outlaw matches and being turned away or screwed with because the current "MD" couldn't beat me or the guys I was with. My game, my rules, my range, my ball. Seen smaller versions of this at USPSA but we have an organization to make it fair and work.

We need to have a rule book and people who administrate it. That cannot happen on its own, you need a sanctioning organization.

USPSA membership is a great value.

I consider it like voting. If you don't vote, don't complain. Don't belong? Don't complain

Edited November 25, 2015 by BSeevers

[JAFO]

I think it would be a nice added benefit to the membership if they could arrange more vendor rebate programs like Remington had recently.

[Chills1994]

USPSA brings fair consistent rules, Certified RO's, National footprint and recognition. I can explain to laymen that I shoot a recognized nationally sanctioned legitimate sports competition.

Without this I could be just shooting refrigerators at the dump and call it a competition. I have seen what lack of National sanctioning can do to the shooting sport. It then becomes a dictatorship, at the worst. I remember going to outlaw matches and being turned away or screwed with because the current "MD" couldn't beat me or the guys I was with. My game, my rules, my range, my ball. Seen smaller versions of this at USPSA but we have an organization to make it fair and work.

We need to have a rule book and people who administrate it. That cannot happen on its own, you need a sanctioning organization.

USPSA membership is a great value.

I consider it like voting. If you don't vote, don't complain. Don't belong? Don't complain

If this outlaw match was still available to shoot, would you still shoot it?

A lot of my coworkers sure do love to talk and bitch about the NFL. In fact, a good amount of company time is spent picking teams for the office pool. As far as I know, none of them are current NFL players.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

one item I keep seeing mentioned is the RO's, I agree that having a bunch of trained RO's is great, but don't kid yourself about them being supplied by USPSA.

USPSA charges $40 per student to take the level 1 RO class plus they charge for travel and Per Diem for the instructor.

I think that is crazy, if the organizations value is mostly in its rules and RO's then it should not charge its volunteers

There is no requirement for there to be certified RO's at Level I matches.

Hell, there " ain't " even a requirement for the match director to be a USPSA member.

[motosapiens]

If you dropped USPSA I would drop your match like a bad habit. USPSA is a game with uniform rules no matter where you shoot it.... I practice specifically for this type of competion, so if you are offering a watered down version of whatever the hell you want then enjoy yourself. I would rather just practice for USPSA.

The memebership is a small fee, less than 100 rounds of 40. If you can't see the value in that you are way behind. Do you complain about paying your light bill?

i pretty much agree with this. for sure, uspsa can do more to provide value to clubs and to members, but i'm not really interested in shooting outlaw matches in general. The one exception I would make is for a 1911 match around here that is run by uspsa shooters and by most of the uspsa rules, but they tweak it slightly to allow for shooting spinners on a few stages, and to start the parachute harness stage with the gun in hand (rather than trying to safely draw 1 handed while swinging back and forth).

I'm one of the guys at our club that often gives the new shooter briefing before matches, so I have a fair amount of contact with first-time uspsa shooters, and the majority of them seem to appreciate the classification system and the uniformity of rules.

also, $40 is nuthin'.

[sperman]

Slight thread drift...

you know how some clubs will run a point series for a year. Each competitor earns so many odd points for each match they attend, or how high they place.

Maybe it would be worthwhile for USPSA HQ to consider something like for clubs...maybe like a sales commission...at the end of the year, the club wins either cash back, or gets props like Texas stars or full size poppers.

Just throwing that out there as an idea.

Kim promised something like this over a year ago. Like almost all of her great ideas, they never came to fruition.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190081&p=2102193

[BSeevers]

USPSA brings fair consistent rules, Certified RO's, National footprint and recognition. I can explain to laymen that I shoot a recognized nationally sanctioned legitimate sports competition.

Without this I could be just shooting refrigerators at the dump and call it a competition. I have seen what lack of National sanctioning can do to the shooting sport. It then becomes a dictatorship, at the worst. I remember going to outlaw matches and being turned away or screwed with because the current "MD" couldn't beat me or the guys I was with. My game, my rules, my range, my ball. Seen smaller versions of this at USPSA but we have an organization to make it fair and work.

We need to have a rule book and people who administrate it. That cannot happen on its own, you need a sanctioning organization.

USPSA membership is a great value.

I consider it like voting. If you don't vote, don't complain. Don't belong? Don't complain

If this outlaw match was still available to shoot, would you still shoot it?

A lot of my coworkers sure do love to talk and bitch about the NFL. In fact, a good amount of company time is spent picking teams for the office pool. As far as I know, none of them are current NFL players.

Haha, It is a free country, for sure.

The outlaw? Well in my younger days being bullheaded, for sure.

In my older wise later life, Oh yea for sure, just to beat up a few Tactical Timmies.

Most of them are dead though.

I like shooting anything but still see USPSA as the best competition

Edited November 25, 2015 by BSeevers