Dirty 9mm Load?

[marksmatter]

Hey All - new to USPSA and to reloading for pistol. Since starting to reload, I have noticed that the gun is far dirtier than it was with factory ammo. Filthy in fact. That includes the muzzle area (I'm apparently too new to post a pic). I shoot 9mm. Load is 3.7 gr Titegroup, 124 gr plated bullet from RMR at 1.135". Is that to be expected, or could I be loading too light? I'm making about 132 power factor from my G34 as it is. Thanks!

[chetc]

Hey All - new to USPSA and to reloading for pistol. Since starting to reload, I have noticed that the gun is far dirtier than it was with factory ammo. Filthy in fact. That includes the muzzle area (I'm apparently too new to post a pic). I shoot 9mm. Load is 3.7 gr Titegroup, 124 gr plated bullet from RMR at 1.135". Is that to be expected, or could I be loading too light? I'm making about 132 power factor from my G34 as it is. Thanks!

We normally load 3.9 TG with 124 coated at 1.100, it seems ok

[CZ85Combat]

try N320 very clean

[marksmatter]

OK thanks guys.

[TANFARM]

Second the N320......what are you " crimping " your rounds???

[marksmatter]

I am crimping my rounds. I use a Lee factory crimping die and do a full crimp. Should I not do this? I do not crimp precision rifle rounds, but there was mixed feedback on pistol. Would crimping impact powder burn?

[razorfish]

Titegroup is a pretty "dirty" powder. People are suggesting N320 because it's a cleaner powder. No problem with Titegroup other than you'll have to clean your pistol more often.

With regard to crimping... In 9mm Luger, the crimp die is used to remove any flare (belling of the mouth of the case) we added to help seat the bullet. Think of the "crimp die" as the "flare removal die". Bullet tension (the force that holds the bullet inside the case) is controlled by the sizing die and NOT the crimp die. If you want more tension on your bullet, lower your sizing die and NOT your crimp die. The crimp die should have nothing to do with the dirtiness of Titegroup unless you're adding too much crimp and damaging the plating on your bullet.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) is another thing entirely. Yes, it will remove the flare just as a regular crimp die will but it also acts to resize the entire round. This is not a problem when using a Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) bullet but it "can" lead to issues using bare lead, coated lead or plated bullets. Why? Because we are now sizing (swaging) the finished round. Yes, the Lee FCD may seem like a "miracle die" by fixing any sizing, bullet seating or crimp issues you may of encountered but to achieve this "miracle" the bullet must also pass through the sizer. portion of the FCD. So, the bullet may go into the FCD at .356 and come out at .355. Doesn't sound like a lot, but this sizing of the bullet can cause leading in the barrel and/or ACCURACY issues. Many people swear by the FCD so your results may vary. Personally I would save the FCD for FMJ bullets only and use a standard crimp die for your plated bullets. Also, this will force you set up the sizing, seating and crimp dies properly. You can really screw things up and then run a round through the LEE FCD and get shootable ammo but it's better to get it right before using the FCD.

I'm not suggesting you should rush out and dump your FCD die right away but if you get a chance in the future to try a standard crimp die, experiment with it and see if you can improve your loaded ammo.

[saibot]

I prefer the FCD for all, but I have had issues with it in the past with having it set incorrectly and swaging the round. User error.

I have a friend who used to Case Pro all of his brass, but now uses an extra FCD in an open station on his press to "Case Pro" the brass before charging/flaring it.

Sorry a bit off topic, but did want to add a little razorfish's comments on the FCD as a whole different animal than your typical taper die.

[texasref]

+3 on the N320. Shot TG for a long time and still use it in 45ACP.

VV N320 is absolutely the cleanest powder I've ever used. However if you're satisfied with how TG shoots by all means stay with it.

[MNshooter]

It's a Glock, not a show piece. I just wipe mine down with a rag every once in a while and clean ever few thousand rounds.

I love TG. It's dirty but it's cheap and performs well.

[DoBell]

Another vote for TG. Dirty but it doesn't bother me at all, cheap, and I have some very accurate loads with it for coated bullets. The muzzle of my G24 is coated with residue after 200 rounds but I like how TG shoots, so it's what I'll always use.

[marksmatter]

Hey thanks a lot everyone for your input! Razorfish - some really good points, and yes, I'm guilty of using the FCD again on rounds that do not pass the case gage check. I have some rethinking/adjustment to do on the FCD and bullet seating dies.

I'm fine with TG being dirty, and my Glock is no showpiece. I enjoy seeing holster wear, etc. on it, but I like seeing signs of use on all my tools. I was worried about the load being too light and not getting full powder burn. I also worry about loading too long since my bullets have a truncated nose (as opposed to a rounded nose). I was leaning on increased case volume to avoid overpressure though. I may try N320 in the future simply to cut down on the "diesel exhaust" effect from TG, but honestly I'm enjoying reloading (almost) as much as shooting right now. Once I burn through the rest of this TG, I will probably give N320 a shot.

[zombywoof]

"The Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) is another thing entirely. Yes, it will remove the flare just as a regular crimp die will but it also acts to resize the entire round. This is not a problem when using a Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) bullet but it "can" lead to issues using bare lead, coated lead or plated bullets. Why? Because we are now sizing (swaging) the finished round. Yes, the Lee FCD may seem like a "miracle die" by fixing any sizing, bullet seating or crimp issues you may of encountered but to achieve this "miracle" the bullet must also pass through the sizer. portion of the FCD. So, the bullet may go into the FCD at .356 and come out at .355. Doesn't sound like a lot, but this sizing of the bullet can cause leading in the barrel and/or ACCURACY issues. Many people swear by the FCD so your results may vary. Personally I would save the FCD for FMJ bullets only and use a standard crimp die for your plated bullets. Also, this will force you set up the sizing, seating and crimp dies properly. You can really screw things up and then run a round through the LEE FCD and get shootable ammo but it's better to get it right before using the FCD."

I switched to 9mm from 45. I was using the FCD in 45 with no apparent issues. I use my own cast bullets. I ordered the FCD for the 9. I was ready to throw my new M&P pro in the garbage the first few months I owned it. The FCD was sizing down my bullets and causing poor accuracy. It was driving me nuts. I finally got rid of the FCD and went with a Lyman M die and taper crimp die. All is well now, M&P rocks.

Edited November 1, 2015 by zombywoof

[granderojo]

If you want more case tension, try using a "U" die from EGW-guns.com. It's a decapping/resizing die. Takes the case O/D down another .oo1".

They are 100% correct about the FCD die resizing the bullet. Found out the hard way. Went to the U die and use it in most of my calibers. Works well.

If you're using coated bullets, Titegroup is a fast, hot burning powder, in my experience. There's a disclaimer on Precision Bullet's web site about it melting the coating off his bullets making them smokier than normal and they stream lead down the barrel.

[open17]

Titegroup is hot, sooty and smokes like a choo-choo train with lead bullets. I never really considered it a dirty

powder----no crusty deposits or unburned chunks. Just a light sooty coating that doesn't affect function.

[tires2burn]

I use TG and it shoots cleaner if you step up the charge.

[marksmatter]

OK, one last question on this issue. I was unaware that I may have been using the Lee FCD as some sort of "crutch", but that does seem to be the case. Lee gives fairly specific instructions as to how to set their dies. Do any of you have tips or tweaks for setting them (sizing, seating, etc.)? Should a completed round be able to pass a Wilson case gauge PRIOR to crimping? The RMR bullets have a healthy diameter - they say 0.355, but I measure closer to 0.357. Thanks!

[himurax13]

Well, the directions that Lee gives for the FCD are spot on.

If an uncrimped bullet is passing the chamber guage, I would have to say that something is wrong.

Personally, I use the cheaper Lee Taper Crimp Die for all of my loads and I mount the Lee FCD on the Lee Single Stage press. If I have a round that does not fit in my hundo guage, then I attempt a repair with the FCD before tossing the round in the pull or practice pile.

[Southpaw]

OK, one last question on this issue. I was unaware that I may have been using the Lee FCD as some sort of "crutch", but that does seem to be the case. Lee gives fairly specific instructions as to how to set their dies. Do any of you have tips or tweaks for setting them (sizing, seating, etc.)? Should a completed round be able to pass a Wilson case gauge PRIOR to crimping? The RMR bullets have a healthy diameter - they say 0.355, but I measure closer to 0.357. Thanks!

A round won't pass a case gauge prior to crimping. With the Lee FCD I've found just a little bit past a 1/2 turn works well on all different types of bullets I've tried. I haven't found any reason to do a full turn for a heavier crimp like they describe in the instructions. You just want to remove the bell; pull a loaded round and make sure you're not leaving a ring on the bullet or cutting into the plating.

You'll know if the FCD is sizing in addition to crimping based on feel. It should be really easy to raise the ram with almost no resistance if it's just crimping. The only time it ever feels like it's sizing for me is with CBC brass since it's thicker than most other brass.

[d_striker]

OK, one last question on this issue. I was unaware that I may have been using the Lee FCD as some sort of "crutch", but that does seem to be the case. Lee gives fairly specific instructions as to how to set their dies. Do any of you have tips or tweaks for setting them (sizing, seating, etc.)? Should a completed round be able to pass a Wilson case gauge PRIOR to crimping? The RMR bullets have a healthy diameter - they say 0.355, but I measure closer to 0.357. Thanks!

If you are going to shoot lead, coated, or even plated bullets you would be wise to slug your barrel. Once you know the size of your bore, go .001" larger with a lead or coated bullet. Then do everything possible to maintain that bullet size through your process. Next time you're in the garage, pull one of your loaded rounds that has been through the fcd. I'll bet it's not .357" anymore.

Razor fish gave an excellent synopsis on how the fcd works. It seems a lot of people don't fully understand exactly what that die is doing. I believe that the reason the fcd works for some and not others comes down to bore diameter which have ranged from .355"-.357" in the pistols I've owned and slugged.

I believe that the carbide sizing ring in the fcd is also subject to manufacturing tolerances. In other words, one fcd might size a bullet smaller than another.

Whether or not an uncrimped round will pass a case gauge is dependent on how much you're sizing the case initially and also how much you're belling the case. Many of my uncrimped rounds will pass a case gauge as I bell the case the absolute minimum necessary and no more. I apply a very light taper crimp just to knock the edge off of the case mouth to improve feeding reliability. My crimp leaves absolutely no mark on a plated bullet.

There are so many variables in reloading which is why something might work for one person but not another. There have been a lot of good posts in this thread. Try to understand the reality of what is happening in YOUR process and adjust accordingly to get your desired results.

Edited November 7, 2015 by d_striker

[Steve RA]

Try 3.5 grs of Clays, very clean.

[saibot]

OK, one last question on this issue. I was unaware that I may have been using the Lee FCD as some sort of "crutch", but that does seem to be the case. Lee gives fairly specific instructions as to how to set their dies. Do any of you have tips or tweaks for setting them (sizing, seating, etc.)? Should a completed round be able to pass a Wilson case gauge PRIOR to crimping? The RMR bullets have a healthy diameter - they say 0.355, but I measure closer to 0.357. Thanks!

If you are going to shoot lead, coated, or even plated bullets you would be wise to slug your barrel. Once you know the size of your bore, go .001" larger with a lead or coated bullet. Then do everything possible to maintain that bullet size through your process. Next time you're in the garage, pull one of your loaded rounds that has been through the fcd. I'll bet it's not .357" anymore.

Razor fish gave an excellent synopsis on how the fcd works. It seems a lot of people don't fully understand exactly what that die is doing. I believe that the reason the fcd works for some and not others comes down to bore diameter which have ranged from .355"-.357" in the pistols I've owned and slugged.

I believe that the carbide sizing ring in the fcd is also subject to manufacturing tolerances. In other words, one fcd might size a bullet smaller than another.

Whether or not an uncrimped round will pass a case gauge is dependent on how much you're sizing the case initially and also how much you're belling the case. Many of my uncrimped rounds will pass a case gauge as I bell the case the absolute minimum necessary and no more. I apply a very light taper crimp just to knock the edge off of the case mouth to improve feeding reliability. My crimp leaves absolutely no mark on a plated bullet.

There are so many variables in reloading which is why something might work for one person but not another. There have been a lot of good posts in this thread. Try to understand the reality of what is happening in YOUR process and adjust accordingly to get your desired results.

Very well put d_striker. On a Dillon XL650, the instructions that came with the FCD got it in the ball park, but required a lot of testing/adjusting to get it where I needed it. Even tool and die makers' tool wear out and tolerances in their wares may be on the other side of the tolerances of the barrel/bullet manufacture. You should see the threads on matching camera body to lens processes out there to compensate.

[marksmatter]

OK thanks everyone! I will get a chance to play in the laboratory/garage tomorrow. I'm going to play around with each stage of the press and try to get a better feel for what exactly is occurring at each one. Off the bat, I know that I may be belling the cases too much.

[LilBunniFuFu]

TG = dirty, no way around that. My experience in order of decreasing cleanliness. N320, E3, competition, clays, TG, Red dot, unique, Blue dot. Those are just the powders I have experience with.

[GOF]

Alliant BE86 is an extremely clean powder and meters consistently. I have been playing with it, N310, N320, WSF, and have come to favor the BE86. A charge of 3.8 under a 147 Xtreme is very accurate, clean, and makes a 125 PF from my 5-inch CORE (ported barrel) and the KKM un-ported barrel. I can't see where N320 is better, and can definitely see where it is worse.

N310 is another story... I'm loving it for Steel Challenge... and club matches where there is no chrono..... 2.9/with 147 Xtreme 9mm is right on the edge of 125... but it kicks like a .22LR!