Shoot low when shooting fast

[MilkMyDuds]

My typical 25 yard Bill Drill is 5 second par-time at least 5 hits inside 6-inch circle. Everything was well until recently I started pushing that par-time. With a 4.5 second par-time, a clear pattern emerged - usually shots would land 3 inches below, still horizontally centered but lower. With a 4 second par-time, often 4 or more shots go vertically lower.

At closer distance such as 15/10 yard Blake drill/El Prez, I do see similar pattern but not as obvious. When the splits are 0.2 or lower, the pattern is more noticeable.

Going back to shoot groups at 25 yards without time limit, POI = POA. It is pretty clear an operator issue.

The question is how to isolate the issue. Poor trigger control at speed? Over compensated recoil control (pushing the gun down too much)? Or not pressing trigger fast enough, e.g. a tiny bit late after the sight picture becomes acceptable before it dips down further?

It may be a combination of all three... Any tips how to isolate the problem, train and overcome with specific drills?

Thanks.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Dot torture drill might help.

[Flash74]

My thought is the gun may not be sprung right for you. As the slide returns to battery it may be pushing the nose down and that is when you might be taking your second shot. A lighter recoil spring will help with this if your gun can run it reliably.

If you are definitely getting two distinct sight pictures for your pairs then it would be an issue of trigger control.

[MilkMyDuds]

I am also inclined to contribute this to poor trigger control, as any split >0.3 at 10-15 yards I have very acceptable sight pictures. I am already using 13# recoil spring right now (100% reliable). Not sure if 11# will function well, but will try.

Because I did not have this problem before, I wonder what is causing this change now. It may be due to my ever evolving grips? Would it make sense to adjust my sight to compensate for the lower POI since most shots are fired under clock? It will hurt 25+ yards classifiers for sure though.

Edited September 2, 2015 by MilkMyDuds

[grapemeister]

I am also inclined to contribute this to poor trigger control, as any split >0.3 at 10-15 yards I have very acceptable sight pictures. I am already using 13# recoil spring right now (100% reliable). Not sure if 11# will function well, but will try.

Because I did not have this problem before, I wonder what is causing this change now. It may be due to my ever evolving grips? Would it make sense to adjust my sight to compensate for the lower POI since most shots are fired under clock? It will hurt 25+ yards classifiers for sure though.

I started doing the same thing about 5 or 6 months ago. Frustrating since I haven't had the problem before in 6 years of practical shooting, and even more frustrating hitting close no-shoots below the available A zone. I know its not the gun, the sights, ammo or anything else since none of that has changed; it's purely in my head. Although it's not as prevalent, I often do the same thing when firing single shots.

I had a really bad flinch when I got into shooting years ago, and this latest problem of dropping shots straight down almost feels the same. There is a similarity in that I'm not seeing the sights drop, but I don't think its a flinch this time around. The only thing I know to do is to get back to basics, work on seeing the sights, and calling my shots. I know I'll overcome it, eventually, but it is frustrating.

[Sarge]

Maybe adjust the sights? Hear me out..... When I switched to open I saw the same thing. It was probably there with irons too but they were so fuzzy I couldn't tell. But I would zero my gun and get the rounds right where the dot was. Of course this was pretty deliberate firing. Then when I first started running the gun at speed I noticed it shot lower. A fellow shooter and GM said to only get the rounds in the ballpark on a sandbag or whatever but to make final adjustments based on POI while shooting at speed. I suppose it has to do with jerking the trigger, which is sort of what's happening on these sub one second splits. There is no gently squeezing the trigger in USPSA

[Hi-Power Jack]

I set my sights just a little high - I know I'm going to pull the gun down on some shots - never up.

[Steve RA]

Only if they are on a Shetland !!!

[MilkMyDuds]

This morning I brought 11#, 15# and 17# to the range for testing.

First of all, all of them shoot very well 25 yards groups freestyle around 3 inches.

Then I started the Blake drill @ 10 yards, maintaining a 0.25 split for the doubles. The pattern was very obvious but also puzzling. The 11# did put my hits all in the center, while the 17# spring lowered all hits by about 4 inches. What's puzzling is that 15# spring also put the rounds in the center...

I did this exercise with 200 rounds. The patterns were very consistent.

My theory: Since I have been training with the stock spring (15#) for the longest time, and only switched to 13# two months ago, my recoil control muscles might still have the memory of the 15# spring. During the switch to 13# spring, I may be getting high hits thus tried to compensate. It may be an over compensation issue. Now shooting 15# spring I still feel it's the most comfortable spring. 11# is super light and I don't really fee the gun is recoiling.

[BeerBaron]

Maybe adjust the sights? Hear me out..... When I switched to open I saw the same thing. It was probably there with irons too but they were so fuzzy I couldn't tell. But I would zero my gun and get the rounds right where the dot was. Of course this was pretty deliberate firing. Then when I first started running the gun at speed I noticed it shot lower. A fellow shooter and GM said to only get the rounds in the ballpark on a sandbag or whatever but to make final adjustments based on POI while shooting at speed. I suppose it has to do with jerking the trigger, which is sort of what's happening on these sub one second splits. There is no gently squeezing the trigger in USPSA

I had a similar experience to you sarge when moving from production to open (also for eyesight reasons - degenerative cornea disease in my case - massive stigmatism).

I could sight the gun in nicely at 25m. then pulling quick shots all would be 3 inches low and an inch left at 25 meters. So I did same as you. move it up 3 inches right one. in very slow controlled fire it printed 3 inches high and inch right. in fast dynamic shooting I was dead on. BUT as my shooting at speed improved and my grip and my trigger control when slapping that trigger improved I noticed my hits were starting to get higher and a little right. now my gun is sighted in just very slightly high at 25 (maybe 1.5inch above top of the dot) and dead in line. my slow fire POI and my 'slapping that trigger' POI are now almost the same. I will probably not change it much more as I like having the dot just below my POI. especially helpful keeping away from targets covered with no-shoots and for shooting steel.

There's no doubt my old sighting was covering up flaws in my shooting, but it worked for me. I say move the sights BUT keep working to fix the problems underlying this issue (flinch, push, trigger jerk or late breaking of the shot).

[robport]

I just got back from the range. I have been having the same problem. I shot about 50 rounds, then dry-fired at the same speed. I've developed a nasty flinch response, but only on the first shot of a string. It only happens when I try to go fast, and I haven't seen it before on dry-fire. It's not bad enough to miss the down -zero but it's plenty enough to miss a headshot. Durn, fix one problem and another old one pops up...oh well.

[AzShooter]

Speed comes naturally. Don't try to rush it. Make sure your sights are on and you are getting all A's during practice. If you are trying to get .2 splits you are not doing it right. Don't try, DO. When you feel slow you are actually going faster.

[Guy Neill]

I'm not certain if you are shooting iron sights or optics, but, in either case, if you are starting to squeeze with your hand at speed, it will pull shots low.

With iron sights you may also be looking over the sights instead of at or through them.

Guy

[robport]

I've developed a similar problem, but only if I'm shooting to my left (strong hand is right). Center and right of center targets are dead on. I was told today that it may be that I'm turning from my waist rather than my hips and that may be causing me to rotate with one shoulder lower than the other (the weak one). I don't know if it's true yet, but I'm going to work on it at the range tomorrow.

[Butterpuc]

I agree with Sarge. I used to zero my pistols getting them perfect then in a local competition I find myself adjusting the sights..... I shoot a lot of As and at my normal match speed.

I'm a believer in adjusting your sights to match your POI and POA at match speed. Then figure out where your POI is at 25 yards, you're going to slow down to a type 2/3 focus on those targets anyway.

[GunBugBit]

[ deleted due to misreading the thread title ]

Edited September 29, 2015 by GunBugBit

[BoyGlock]

So its advisable to zero the sights inclusive of one's trigger pull error and recoil mismanagement?

Im on the other side of the fence so pls enlighten...

Thanks

[GunBugBit]

I'm on the other side of the fence, too. I see no reason to indulge any sloppy aiming I might be doing when shooting stages.

[Rangerdug]

My thought is the gun may not be sprung right for you. As the slide returns to battery it may be pushing the nose down and that is when you might be taking your second shot. A lighter recoil spring will help with this if your gun can run it reliably.

If you are definitely getting two distinct sight pictures for your pairs then it would be an issue of trigger control.

I appreciate this... I get caught up in driving the gun with parts it came with, but I am going to play with this

[Jake Di Vita]

I think it is utterly ridiculous to adjust your sights to where you usually miss towards. I never want to set myself up to where if I execute the shot correctly I'm going to miss. Fix the marksmanship issues, don't rely on a crutch.

If your misses get more pronounced as you go faster, there are definite mechanical issues to sort out. Obviously this isn't something that can be diagnosed online but it's going to boil down to something is causing the gun to move from where you want the round to go before the bullet exits the barrel. Perfect trigger control is not required to shoot accurately - the only thing that needs to happen to make a shot accurate is the barrel has to be pointing at your target until the bullet leaves the gun. It sounds like it's time to shoot at a berm with all of your attention towards the action of your wrists hands and fingers. Your goal is to observe through feel and sight what is happening to make the sights dip before the bullet is out of the barrel and then to stop doing it.

It's going to take time, work, and maybe help from others but it is totally fixable.

In my experience when the problem gets worse as I go faster, the cause is usually somewhere in my grip or stance.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[Nik Habicht]

My typical 25 yard Bill Drill is 5 second par-time at least 5 hits inside 6-inch circle. Everything was well until recently I started pushing that par-time. With a 4.5 second par-time, a clear pattern emerged - usually shots would land 3 inches below, still horizontally centered but lower. With a 4 second par-time, often 4 or more shots go vertically lower.

At closer distance such as 15/10 yard Blake drill/El Prez, I do see similar pattern but not as obvious. When the splits are 0.2 or lower, the pattern is more noticeable.

Going back to shoot groups at 25 yards without time limit, POI = POA. It is pretty clear an operator issue.

The question is how to isolate the issue. Poor trigger control at speed? Over compensated recoil control (pushing the gun down too much)? Or not pressing trigger fast enough, e.g. a tiny bit late after the sight picture becomes acceptable before it dips down further?

It may be a combination of all three... Any tips how to isolate the problem, train and overcome with specific drills?

Thanks.

I'm going to ask -- when the sights come back on target for the second shot, are they "on target" in the same spot they were in for the first shot? Or is it anywhere in the A Box vertically speaking when you decide to pull the trigger the second time?

Brian talks about aiming at a specific place on the target -- are you naturally letting your sights return to that same spot at speed? May be worth shooting a couple of hundred rounds just to see what happens -- without judging. Score and paste the targets after every run.....

[Miranda]

So its advisable to zero the sights inclusive of one's trigger pull error and recoil mismanagement?

Im on the other side of the fence so pls enlighten...

Thanks

I am not stating I agree with this answer to the question.

I am explaining what I heard.

shifting the sights is to see if the shooter is using the sights.

think of it as the shooter IS using the sights and at that distance is hitting low.

... if the holes raise... it means the sights are being used.

if the shooter is using timing the first shot should be high and the rest on center.

a tough call from my computer.

miranda

[saibot]

I wouldn't adjust your sights. What I would do is diagnose your problem. Let's try a few things. At that pace, sight focused, fire a few magazines into the berm to SEE what they're doing. Then try putting some black tape over your FO and try the 25 yard Bill Drill. Also concentrate on the grip pressure and try to feel what pressure each hand is applying at each speed. Start slow and increase your shots and see what you notice.

And I know this is going to sound funny, but borrow a stock Sig 320 and dry fire the drill. It resets with each trigger pull and you'll notice the sights moving if you're doing something wrong. My guess is you're tensing up your strong hand at speed causing you to disturb the gun an instant before the trigger breaks. See how these diagnostic drills feel. Might also try the Ball and Dummy drill.

[Ocrrhbow]

My inclination is that it is a timing of the trigger issue. Ideally, the shot would break at the exact instant recoil returns the sight to the original point of aim. if the timing isn't correct the sights will dip past the POA and impact low.