Problems with steel?

[Loves2Shoot]

Just a thought, for what it's worth.

In the winter here in Bend, OR we shoot steel plates IPSC style because of the weather issues and target costs. So, every spring (or like this year warm winter) there is a transistion time from shooting steel to shooting paper.

I hear lots of people complain about steel during a COF (course of fire) and why they have such problems shooting steel. I have a hard time changing focus to shooting A's on a big IPSC targets during this transistion period. It generally takes me 5 or 6 practice sessions to reign things in, and it always frustrates me.

This year I did it in one session, by focusing on prepping the trigger and shooting the center of the plates during the winter instead of just shooting the plate. This got me to thinking about why so many good shooters get stuck in the same classes. How many of you know people who've been in B/C class "forever" and they've shot for 10+ years?

You can make M/GM with a 1.3 sec draw/reload and .25-.35 splits as long as you get all A's. Do the math on the classifiers and you'll see what I mean.

I think that people have gotten so "obsessed" with trying to imitate what they see good shooters doing they don't take the time to actually learn how to shoot.

I was on the verge of making Master before I actually learned how to shoot. I finally had the opportunity to take a class from a great, world renowned, instructor and he told me I did not know how to grip the gun, draw, reload, and my accuracy sucked. I spent a year re-leaning "how to shoot" then I found an "OLD" book by a guy named Brian Enos, I had of course seen the book in all the usuall places, but because of the picture on the cover being so old, thought it was probably out dated. After breaking down and buying the book I discover what shooting was really about. Technically I was pretty sound, but mentally I had a long way to go (probably still do.) So, why am I rambling on about my shooting progression? Because I know what it's like to not know how to shoot. I know the barriers to improvement. I know what it is like to shoot in D class. You can get away with a lot and go pretty far on a local/regional level.

All targets should be shot the same, period. Close targets should not be "hosed" you should not "double tap" targets. You don't need to count on your "index" to hit a target on the draw in .xx (fill in the "cool" number, .6 and .8 seem to be popluar with posters.) Your draw speed on a target a hand distance is unimportant, move it to 10 yards or 15 yards, only A zone hits acceptable, to test your skill. 1 meter draws don't test skill, either do .xx (fill in the "cool" number) reloads. Reloads at 10 and 15 yards with A zone hits test skill. If you want to be the best you have to think of this as a game of accuracy and then speed. You can not afford "extra" shots, every shot has to count for as many points as are readily available for that shot. You have to be as perfect as you can be on every shot. No shot should be easy or hard in your mind.

Different shots just take different amounts of time to execute. You don't have to have a perfect sight picture for each shot, you just have to know what type of sight picture each shot needs and take only that amount of sight picture to execute the shot.

These are the things I wish I would have really understood as a shooter coming up. I spend most of my time these days trying to perfect the execution of these principles.

All this to say, if you are having problems shooting steel, then you probably don't understand how to shoot paper. You have a small rectangle to shoot, even if you see a big 'ole target, you only have a little part to hit if you want to make the most out of pulling the trigger. If you look at it that way, steel plates and poppers are bigger to shoot than paper targets at the same distance.

This game is so much more mental control than I could have ever guessed. DVC ~ Scott

[Putty]

Ah Master, this lowly barhopper is going to copy and paste words of eloquence. Crap I had to pay for that verbiage and now your giving it away for free!

[Loves2Shoot]

No, you paid for my time reloading your mags

[MikeFoley]

I too have seen the light, and I agree with this totally. Guys who cannot shoot steel usually get a lot of D's and M's.

[markm]

Great info, I'm still learning to shoot. I thought if the sight is on brown, then pull the trigger. I have and on occasion, still shoot that way. Sure seems fast, but gaining 2 sec., on a coures of fire and then dropping 15 pts., doesn't add up to a winning HF.

Mark

[Singlestack]

I think that people have gotten so "obsessed" with trying to imitate what they see good shooters doing they don't take the time to actually learn how to shoot.

Or, they(I) forget

[mcoliver]

It's really a crazy mental shift between paper and steel.

Most people (me included) shift to "looking for feedback" when shooting steel and trust my shot-calling less. When in fact, a paper A-zone doesn't really give me that convenience of "telling" me it got hit and yet I seem to think I can shoot faster at it.

Is it because we take comfort in the fact that we can get away with a miss in the A-zone?

[iweiny]

I believe I have an interesting problem when shooting steel... I think I have felt like steel are "giv'me" shots since they are bigger than A's... Therefore, I find I have a problem shooting steel until I take the time to get a sight picture appropriate for that distance... (generaly farther away for safety purposes.) I think that is why steel messes me up.

Indeed it is a mental game. I only appreciate having found this forum to learn from while I am starting.

Ira

[ScottQ]

I'm still digesting it all, but I love what you said, and it really resonates. We have a few M and GM shooters here locally, and I've certainly noticed even as a newbie to IPSC that regardless of the stage, regardless of how far/close the targets are, or how fast they shoot, they almost always shoot A's.

So as I'm learning, I try to shoot all A's, and let the speed come as it comes. The more I practice, the more quickly I can shoot good shots without "rushing". As soon as I cross that line and try to shoot too fast, those A's instantly turn into D's, mikes, etc, and even though my times are better, my scores nosedive.

Great post, L2S!

[Bear1142]

I'll pass along a little advice Todd Jarrett gave me about eight years ago. "Don't shoot at the steel, shoot the steel." Small change in verbage, huge effect.

Erik

[Flexmoney]

Nice thread.

We all should know that it is impossible to miss if the gun/sights are aligned on the target as the shot leaves the barrel...

A good point that has been made in this thread is that we, the shooters, can get lax in what we define as the target.

[Bear23]

Sound advice. I've been learning this one for a while. During a course of fire i'll have half A' and then half C's. I'm just going too fast and need to focus on the shot and follow through, worry less about speed and just try to be smooth.

[mcoliver]

I was shooting an all-steel match yesterday and I averaged 3 shots per steel. Gawd awfully embarrassing to keep missing like that (good thing I had brought more ammo). And here's the kicker, I knew my sights where nowhere near the target yet I kept on pulling the trigger.

If I had to summarize what I was doing, it felt like I was shooting with my mind (thinking too much) instead of with my vision. It was like...hold sight pic, pull trigger, miss...no, no too high, hold lower, pull trigger, miss...pull trigger, miss, WTF you didn't even see any target, did you?...ok steel at about 10m, hold center...and on and on...

Funny thing is you tend to wake up from this zombie-shooting-state on the last stage of the match. Frustrating...

Thank God for friends who can make the grayest of days still bright and fun. (sorry for the mini rant.)

[Loves2Shoot]

Sounds like your letting your expectations get in the way of your actualization. Very common problem. The only way I know to clear that one out is to empty the mind, prep the trigger, and find the center of the target. Nothing else really matters that much.

Good thing it's all about fun.

[EricW]

I'll pass along a little advice Todd Jarrett gave me about eight years ago.  "Don't shoot at the steel, shoot the steel."  Small change in verbage, huge effect.

Erik

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactumundo. I've learned that I cannot expect a hit by just looking for white behind the sights. I am training myself to look at a *point* in the center of the target (doesn't matter whether it's paper, steel, duck, whatever) and shoot *that*. Shooting at a specific point generates hits. Shooting at white or brown generates misses.

[basman]

"Different shots just take different amounts of time to execute. You don't have to have a perfect sight picture for each shot, you just have to know what type of sight picture each shot needs and take only that amount of sight picture to execute the shot. "

[schmitz]

Great post L2S (Scott),

turned my thinking mode ON!

Thx, needed it,

[hdgun]

You Know, This is why I like this forum. All these thoughts comming out in print. I love It!!

This thread has really made me think of how I shoot. It really does put things in perspective. I will have a differant mind set at the next Match.

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I feel like a spunge, just soaking it all up.

[LPatterson]

I must be lazy because I prefer to shoot at 6" paper plates rather than steel plates because I don't want to have to keep picking them up. I also don't want to wait for the response time of seeing them falling, either the sights were on the target or they weren't. When I do shoot at steel plates, I use some 6" X 11" steel that mount on a 5 foot fence post and some that mount on a "U" 3 feet off the ground. They don't fall so I don't worry about watching them after the shot because they don't go anywhere and I get used to aiming for the "A" zone. My imitation IPSC targets are made from garbage bags which provide for "A" & "C" zones if I use both sides of the bag. Or using the bottom & 1 side you get upper "A" zone to the bottom of the "C" zone.

[sixx]

I tell myself,before each stage, or each longer range,slower type of shot. :"I dont want to come close, I want to CENTER it". Helps me quite a bit, as long as I can stay focused on it.

[benos]

Great (original) post Scott.

I've told this story before, but your post reminded me of it, so I'll bring it up again. At the Masters, way back in '89, all I had to do was shoot a fairly clean run on the Action Event to win the match. (It was the last stage.) At some point before shooting the stage, Jerry Miculek asked me what my "plan" was. I said that instead of just shooting at the plates, I was going to shoot each plate near the middle. I asked him what his plan was, and his reply has always stuck with me: "You ever shoot a shot and you don't remember seeing a sight picture?" Of course I said yes. Then he said: That's what I'm gonna avoid. I loved that answer. But I stuck to my original plan. Man was that tough. But I think I finished 2nd on the Action Event. In the heat, it can feel painfully slow to make yourself see what you know you need to see. But it usually isn't slow at all.

be

[wide45]

I don 't have big problems with steel, but most of my misses are from firing shots that I knew would not hit. This thread has got me asking myself why. I think that I have taught myself to break the shot a little early getting into the A zone, or accept less sight alignment, knowing it will still be a hit on paper. Feeding the need for speed.

There are no C zones on steel.

[bufit323]

This post is filled with good insight, I thank you all! My new moto on paper and steel is "Aim small Miss Small"

[mikeg]

I just finished a club shoot in my local. there is a stage with 22 steel targets poppers and falling plates. Shooting steel is fun I just need to remember to take time to aim. see the sights and not rush to things.

[Stuck in C]

Try shooting steel with 9 mm (Production or Limited minor). You pretty much have to have a good center or upper hit to knock over a full size popper with a 9, especially around here where the steel is set hard to prevent it from blowing over in the constant wind. I see a lot of shooters get sloppy with their hits since edge or marginal hits will knock steel over with their hot major loads. I think this eventually leads to misses since youv'e taught yourself you don't need to worry about good hits.