Creeping VS False Start define the difference

[jrb06]

Looking for opinion on the following situation.

Start position is Hands on marks gun loaded and holstered. Ro issues make ready competitor makes ready and is in proper position, "stand by" and before the beep the competitor removes hands from the marks and goes to the gun. Competitor realizes they have moved prior to beep and looks to RO as if waiting for RO to stop them. RO says and does nothing after several long seconds competitor begins course of fire and completes it.

After ULSC competitor and RO discuss situation competitor says RO should have stopped them because" they jumped the start" or "false start" and there is a rule about jumping the start where the competitor must be stopped and restated as soon as possible. Range Master is called and discussion takes place on event. Range Master essentially said because competitor was moving to a more advantageous positions with the hands they were creeping so a procedural should have been imposed. Inquire about the false start rule and it is still concluded that the competitor was creeping.

So after all of that, here are the two rules give your opinion on how to determine the difference.

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards handgun, reloading device, or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

The main wording that I see between the two is "at the start signal" and "prior to the issuance of the start signal" if the signal has not sounded it must be "prior" right? So should one of these go away?

All right what say you?

[sfinney]

In my small mind:

Creeping..... moving toward gun or out of start position in anticipation of jumping the beep as close as possible.

False start...... Shooter makes aggressive move to gun and/or start moving down range before beep and is going to proceed with course, thinks the start has occurred.

I think as the shooter stopped himself he realized he did not get beeped, he was probably trying to time the beep? If, so I could see that being ruled creeping, especially if this was a "habit" for this shooter. Maybe he was being setup? Had he been trying to beat the beep on other stages?

[LilBunniFuFu]

Most of the RM that I have ROed under would rather have you stop the shooter and restart them than give the procedural. For the first infraction. If the shooter blatantly creeps more often than not then issue the procedurals.

[ktm300]

Kind of a screwed up set of rules.

I will try not to push the button but if I do I say stop. If you keep moving for what seems like more than 4 seconds I am going to stop you and we will start over again. You do it again for 4 seconds I am calling creeping.

[Sarge]

I have thoughts on this but too lengthy for a tiny phone keypad. Lol will weigh in tonight

[Jay870]

In scenario described I would argue that the competitor failed to react to the start signal which is covered under 8.3.4

I had this happen as a shooter at an Area match. I was waiting for the beep and jumped at a shot on an adjacent bay a fraction of a second before the timer went off... my reaction was to the shot, not the start signal. I just re-assumed the start position and RO started over at "Are you ready?".

[jrb06]

I did send this to Troy at NROI for an opinion. Will update when I get a answer

[kevin c]

A bit vague, isn't it?

The way it was presented to me many many moons ago was that creeping is a deliberate attempt to gain an unfair advantage by edging away from the required start position prior to the signal (hence the penalty), while the second is an honest accident caused by being twitchy, but starting from the accepted start position before the signal, (in which case the shooter gets a break his way).

I was told: if the competitor would probably do the same movement at the same speed and the same manner with a proper start, then it's likely a false start. If the competitor would likely not do the same with a proper start because the movement was too slow and not complete, then it's likely creeping.

But which actually gets called is a subjective call, as the OP found out.

[Poppa Bear]

If you move your hands or feet in a slow steady manner you are creeping. If your Hands/Feet/Body explode out of position then I would call a false start.

Like Kevin said "if the competitor would probably do the same movement at the same speed and the same manner with a proper start, then it's likely a false start"

[bikerburgess]

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

[Bkreutz]

The way I look at it is that 10.2.6 is where the shooter is consciously trying to gain an advantage (so a procedural) but 8.3.4.1 isn't a conscious attempt at an advantage, it's a false start, either the shooter is nervous or thought they heard the beep. But in the case of the first instance, I just won't start the shooter until they are in the proper position. If they keep on trying to creep, then a procedural.

[Nik Habicht]

A bit vague, isn't it?

The way it was presented to me many many moons ago was that creeping is a deliberate attempt to gain an unfair advantage by edging away from the required start position prior to the signal (hence the penalty), while the second is an honest accident caused by being twitchy, but starting from the accepted start position before the signal, (in which case the shooter gets a break his way).

I was told: if the competitor would probably do the same movement at the same speed and the same manner with a proper start, then it's likely a false start. If the competitor would likely not do the same with a proper start because the movement was too slow and not complete, then it's likely creeping.

But which actually gets called is a subjective call, as the OP found out.

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

I like both of these approaches, and have heard both in various RO courses......

[GrumpyOne]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8Q3ywwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtLPZmPaHme0&ei=bFhVVavtCsGvyASIyIDYAg&usg=AFQjCNEhhPv1ScJ02cw2AKa_3lEcQ2XCrA&sig2=RSaJBJ-7s0gA4eTll6NXxw

It's really kind of obvious...Think of someone trying to time a stop light...Thats creeping....

[bikerburgess]

A bit vague, isn't it?

The way it was presented to me many many moons ago was that creeping is a deliberate attempt to gain an unfair advantage by edging away from the required start position prior to the signal (hence the penalty), while the second is an honest accident caused by being twitchy, but starting from the accepted start position before the signal, (in which case the shooter gets a break his way).

I was told: if the competitor would probably do the same movement at the same speed and the same manner with a proper start, then it's likely a false start. If the competitor would likely not do the same with a proper start because the movement was too slow and not complete, then it's likely creeping.

But which actually gets called is a subjective call, as the OP found out.

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

I like both of these approaches, and have heard both in various RO courses......

I think the first example would be ideal but unfortunately we can only guess the shooters intent (sometimes we can be pretty sure but it is still just a guess) so I will stick with the fact based approach. Was there a start signal? We're they moving when it was given? This is one of the reasons we don't use the random delay feature on the timers, otherwise we would be giving lots of creeping procedurals (how many times have you seen, stand by, pause, shooter almost falls over, shooter resets themselves and get are you ready again?)

[jester121]

I thought you're supposed to beep him while he's resetting himself?

[2MoreChains]

I thought you're supposed to beep him while he's resetting himself?

+1! Bonus points if you can do it with a straight face.

[kevin c]

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

Yes, I've heard it this way too, and think it's a good approach. I think the philosophy presented with this was that the RO should start everybody the same, whether there was an attempt to gain advantage or not. Just give the shooter another, "Are you ready?", perhaps making them reassume the proper start position if they haven't self corrected (which I often see but only with what I think were real fallse starts) and go from there. But if the creeper make a last minute move and the buzzer goes off before the RO can catch himself, it's supposed to be on the shooter (procedural).

For me it still sort of depends. If the shooter clearly double clutched; moved from the start position, stopped and tried to go back to the start position, or if he starts before the signal but then stops, demonstrating that he knows he jumped the gun, either way I would know that it was not intentional, and whether or not I had given the start signal, I'd be inclined to give a reshoot. It's a bit of good will that costs nothing but a few seconds of match time. But when the movement is carried through into the shooting without hesitation, then it seems to me much more likely it was done deliberately for advantage, either deliberate creeping or just pushing/gambling on the edge, and a procedural seems appropriate.

So the assumption here is that the shooter needs to be completely still some time (immediately?) after "Stand By" and until the start signal (the exception being a self start where the shooter must perform some action to start the clock). Forgive me for not remembering, but is this in the rulebook?

[Fuelie777]

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

[Fuelie777]

Yes. This how it was taught by George Jones at my first RO course. Kinda simple in my mind and have used this on many calls.

[Jimdoe]

At my RO course it was explained like this. If the shooter is moving and you can't stop yourself from giving the start signal then that would be creeping if you don't give the start signal then it's a false start.

I haven't taken a RO class, maybe someday, and I have RO'd shooters at our local club many time where they incurred this type of situation. I usually just restart them but this would be a good way to remember the rule.

[frag316]

I personally like the "slow vs. explode" comparison. If the competitor jumps and starts to execute the plan, that's a false start. If the competitor is slowly moving to position himself for movement toward the first shooting position or toward the gun, then that's creeping.

I look at it like this--there was a stage at SS Nationals where you were specifically directed to face "downrange," and the ROs made sure your head and shoulders were pointed toward the back berm. The first shooting position for most people was three or four yards left. If a guy started to turn head or shoulders toward the first position, that's creeping. You don't beep the guy and issue a warning and procedural(s) as necessary. If they jumped quickly toward that first position, I think that's a false start.

If you've ever watched archived footage of Mark Hanish bouncing up and down at the start position during a 3-Gun Nation shoot-off, that's creeping. He tries to time coiling and uncoiling his legs to the start signal.

[whitedog]

A false start is using a feather.

Creepy is using the whole bird.

Oh, whoops, wrong forum. Sorry...?

[George Jones]

This is what I teach, in context.

Creeping (shooter anticipating the start signal) is only penalized if it happens AT the start signal. The specific definition of creeping is in the rulebook.

If the shooter returns to the correct position prior to the Beep!, no penalty. So if the shooter "twitches" but returns to the correct position and I can still release the start signal within the 4 seconds, I do so to avoid an unnecessary penalty. No harm, no foul.

False starts are different in that it is a case where the shooter thinks he's heard the signal (perhaps from the next bay) and off he goes. It's not just a flinch. It should be easy for the RO to know the difference since the RO would have heard it too. In this case, it's a STOP! command since you cannot possibly get a correct time for the run. Reset as necessary and reshoot.

[jrb06]

I said i would update this when i received a reply from NROI, Well here is the response back from NROI

This is neither a false start (which means actually firing shots, not just moving), nor is it creeping. It's simply a case of the competitor not being in the right start position for the course of fire, and the RO not controlling the situation. In this case, the proper thing would have been to say, "get back in the start position", or "stop moving, please" or something similar, and then to recommence the range commands from "Are You Ready". The reason that we always run the timer on instant is so that the RO can be in control of the competitor up to the start signal. When the timer is on random, nobody knows when the time will start, and things can get complicated. In this example, if the RO and competitor had time to look at one another, the RO had time to correct the situation and restart the competitor. If not, the following rules apply, but up to the point of the start signal, the RO should be in control of the situation.

8.2.2 requires a reshoot in this instance, but note that 8.3.1 specifies that if a competitor is not in the correct start position, the RO shall not proceed. 10.2.6 does not apply, unless the competitor was moving AT the start signal--otherwise, it's incumbent upon the RO to ensure that the competitor is in the correct start position and still.

[teros135]

I said i would update this when i received a reply from NROI, Well here is the response back from NROI

This is neither a false start (which means actually firing shots, not just moving), nor is it creeping. It's simply a case of the competitor not being in the right start position for the course of fire, and the RO not controlling the situation. In this case, the proper thing would have been to say, "get back in the start position", or "stop moving, please" or something similar, and then to recommence the range commands from "Are You Ready". The reason that we always run the timer on instant is so that the RO can be in control of the competitor up to the start signal. When the timer is on random, nobody knows when the time will start, and things can get complicated. In this example, if the RO and competitor had time to look at one another, the RO had time to correct the situation and restart the competitor. If not, the following rules apply, but up to the point of the start signal, the RO should be in control of the situation.

8.2.2 requires a reshoot in this instance, but note that 8.3.1 specifies that if a competitor is not in the correct start position, the RO shall not proceed. 10.2.6 does not apply, unless the competitor was moving AT the start signal--otherwise, it's incumbent upon the RO to ensure that the competitor is in the correct start position and still.

I'm a little unclear here. Where does it say that a False Start "means actually firing shots, not just moving"? The only thing I could find in the rulebook is in both 8.3.4 and the Glossary (A3), where it says that a false start is "Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the "start signal"". In many of our COFs, as in the one in the OP's example, the first thing we do after the start signal to MOVE, for example taking our hands off the Xs and both going for the gun and making a movement with our feet, or making a movement into the shooting area as we go for the gun, etc. Most people, I believe, would consider that to be the beginning of an attempt at a COF.

Also, in the OP's story it sounded as though the start signal ("beep") may have been given ("before the beep the competitor removes hands from the marks and goes to the gun. Competitor realizes they have moved prior to beep..."). In that case, it sounds like a possible False Start, and the competitor realized it and stopped.

I would agree, the RO could have stopped the action ("Stop" command) and restarted from "Are you ready?" to make it a clean run.