grinder Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Or are you shooting on cadence alone? Thanks, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You should see your sight on every shot. Period. Shoot as fast or as slow as you can to still do this. If you take one sight picture and pull the trigger twice, expect a lot of "Alpha-Delta" and "Alpha-Mikes" on the scores. There really is no "double-tap" per say. Just two well aimed shots, kinda close together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Depends on the distance, size of target. But, except for very large, very close targets, I have to agree with Corey - much better to "see the sights" each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinder Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thanks for the replies. I saw someone at the range this week who was teaching another shooter to double tap. He taught that a double tap was strictly rhythm, see the first shot and then break the second shot as fast as you can. If the second shot went high you should shoot a little slower. If the second shot of a double tap goes low you should break the second shot sooner. He teaches that you do not need to see the sights at all on the second shot of a double tap. I thought that this maybe a advanced shooting technique, thanks for giving me the correct information! Thanks, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The more advanced technique is based on seeing what you need to see to reliably make the shot desired. The target is two feet away? you will probably hit it with the second shot, based on cadence. The surer method, though, is to shoot after seeing enough to confrm the sight picture, and that is going to be the case for any distance further out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Always see something. If you're extremely close maybe all you need is a green fiber on brown irrespective of where the rest of the gun is. But if you don't see where the gun is pointed, how can you know where your bullets are going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ross, I think double tapping as you describe is a good way to choose a recoil spring, but not a very effective way to shoot a match. One sight picture, two shots; the location of your second shot can tell you a lot about how well the gun is tuned to your trigger speed, strength, grip technique. If your second shot is high, a heavier recoil spring could help get the front sight back on target quicker, if the second shot is low, the muzzle could be dipping upon returning to battery and a lighter recoil spring might benefit you. I use words like "could" and "might" because there are a lot of variables involved, but I've found this to be a helpful tool in getting two alphas. If the sights return to target by themselves, aiming the second shot requires only observation/confirmation, rather than correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSwift Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You guys can debate good competition technique, but if Ross was asking about what a "double tap" really is, which is what the title sounds like, then he's exactly right. A double tap is not simply shooting something twice, like some the mall ninjas think; otherwise burst fire would be a triple tap and full auto would be an uber tap. A double tap is shooting twice with one initial sight picture, so to answer the OP's question, no you do not wait to see the sights for the second shot. You're relying on your control of the weapon to allow you to place the second shot close enough. Sure, weak grip shooters with poor technique and stout calibers will get a lot of AM's trying it, but plenty of shooters can acquire a sight picture, close their eyes, and hit AA in a faster shot split than they can shoot two aimed shots and get an even more accurate AA, so it isn't a completely useless/application-less technique. Two perfectly centered A's are worth the same as one A in the center and one on the edge. Whether or not you recommend it for shooting stages or think acquiring a sight picture each time is better are both irrelevant to the actual question asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSwift Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 More beneficial would be to discuss times when a double tap is a better idea than two individually aimed shots. The two that come to mind immediately are: 1 - ridiculously close "in your face" targets that you couldn't miss if you wanted to 2 - horizontally moving targets that you will only get a single brief opportunity to engage before they slide/swing behind cover and stay there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) ask any top tier shooter and they will tell you the same thing .... every shot is aimed, period. if the definition of a double tap is pulling the triggr twice with only aiming once (or one sight picture) that is not on the path to shooting greatness ... the real question of course is how much "aiming", or more correctly, what sight picture is necessary for what shot ... as your shooting skill progresses you will discover that you can use a different sight picture for different types/distances of targets .... that will put you on the path to shooting greatness ... Edited January 16, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 See it. Or see something. Whatever you need to see, to break the shot. Not just timing/cadence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4540 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I believe your shots should be aimed on a double tap, unless as was said the target is so close you could.not miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinder Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Wow, really appreciate the replies. Much to think about. Thanks, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 If this is strictly a question of vocabulary we could go down rabbitholes about whether Creedmoor prone is truly prone based on someone's favorite interpretation of "prone." That would be useless. It seems to be more useful to consider the best way of putting bulletholes in the places you want them, which involves aiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks for the replies. I saw someone at the range this week who was teaching another shooter to double tap. He taught that a double tap was strictly rhythm, see the first shot and then break the second shot as fast as you can. If the second shot went high you should shoot a little slower. If the second shot of a double tap goes low you should break the second shot sooner. He teaches that you do not need to see the sights at all on the second shot of a double tap. I thought that this maybe a advanced shooting technique, thanks for giving me the correct information! Thanks, Ross Just because someone at the range is attempting to instruct another shooter, doesn't mean he knows what the heck he's talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 You should see your sight on every shot. Period. Shoot as fast or as slow as you can to still do this. If you take one sight picture and pull the trigger twice, expect a lot of "Alpha-Delta" and "Alpha-Mikes" on the scores. There really is no "double-tap" per say. Just two well aimed shots, kinda close together. +1.I dunno if it takes longer to see the sights for the second shot, but I can't measure a difference on the clock in practice. I can see an increase in alphas though, so I look for the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) You guys can debate good competition technique, but if Ross was asking about what a "double tap" really is, which is what the title sounds like, then he's exactly right. A double tap is not simply shooting something twice, like some the mall ninjas think; otherwise burst fire would be a triple tap and full auto would be an uber tap. A double tap is shooting twice with one initial sight picture, so to answer the OP's question, no you do not wait to see the sights for the second shot. You're relying on your control of the weapon to allow you to place the second shot close enough. Sure, weak grip shooters with poor technique and stout calibers will get a lot of AM's trying it, but plenty of shooters can acquire a sight picture, close their eyes, and hit AA in a faster shot split than they can shoot two aimed shots and get an even more accurate AA, so it isn't a completely useless/application-less technique. Two perfectly centered A's are worth the same as one A in the center and one on the edge. Whether or not you recommend it for shooting stages or think acquiring a sight picture each time is better are both irrelevant to the actual question asked. wait, what? why would you stop looking at the sights. I just keep watching the sights. they go up a little (often not leaving the a-zone on a close target) and they come back down. I can pull the trigger as fast as I possibly can (.15-.16 splits for me) and never lose the sight picture. On 7 yard bill drills I watch them the whole time, and every shot is fired while seeing a sight picture, as fast as I can pull the trigger. Edited January 17, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 More beneficial would be to discuss times when a double tap is a better idea than two individually aimed shots. The two that come to mind immediately are: 1 - ridiculously close "in your face" targets that you couldn't miss if you wanted to 2 - horizontally moving targets that you will only get a single brief opportunity to engage before they slide/swing behind cover and stay there The longer I shoot the more I find neither of these to be true. On targets that are stupid close you really need to be shooting all A's and it is very likely and too common to start moving the gun if you don't wait for the second sight picture and end up with A/D or A/M...either that or you already transitioning way too slow and you shoot p-pew..............p-pew.............p-pew. On close targets I want .14-.15 splits and .16 transitions. To get A's at this speed you need to see the sight twice per target. On disappearing targets, if they appear and disappear that quick you are still better to fire two aimed shots if possible or at least one aimed shot and score a full 5 points rather than a C and a miss which is likely if you sling a double tap at it. If its a swinger that reappears shoot one per exposure if you have to but if its fast enough that you feel you need to double tap, its fast enough that the second shot likley won't connect anyways, or at least you'll have no idea if it did and you'll have to stand there and re-engage anyways. You can't double tap a Bill Drill and its still probably the most effective drill for figuring out how fast you should be shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) every Steel Challenge match I've ever shot I've seen more than one person miss an 18" x 24" steel plate at 7 yds ..... while you can ( and should) use different sight pictures for different targets you still need to aim every shot ... Edited January 17, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newmexicocrawler Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Yes I see my sights on the second shot....I know when it is going to be there and am ready for it when it comes back into sight I crack number 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie45 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 In the military we prefer the term "controlled pair." Mostly to make it really clear that both shots are aimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedays Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree with those who said every single shot should be aimed. Taking any shot hoping it will be "close enough" is not enough control for me. I have no issues shooting fast but keeping the sights on the target. Try shooting hand sized targets with a quick "hope it hits" and you will miss every other shot you didn't aim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 More beneficial would be to discuss times when a double tap is a better idea than two individually aimed shots. The two that come to mind immediately are: 1 - ridiculously close "in your face" targets that you couldn't miss if you wanted to 2 - horizontally moving targets that you will only get a single brief opportunity to engage before they slide/swing behind cover and stay there The longer I shoot the more I find neither of these to be true. On targets that are stupid close you really need to be shooting all A's and it is very likely and too common to start moving the gun if you don't wait for the second sight picture and end up with A/D or A/M...either that or you already transitioning way too slow and you shoot p-pew..............p-pew.............p-pew. On close targets I want .14-.15 splits and .16 transitions. To get A's at this speed you need to see the sight twice per target.On disappearing targets, if they appear and disappear that quick you are still better to fire two aimed shots if possible or at least one aimed shot and score a full 5 points rather than a C and a miss which is likely if you sling a double tap at it. If its a swinger that reappears shoot one per exposure if you have to but if its fast enough that you feel you need to double tap, its fast enough that the second shot likley won't connect anyways, or at least you'll have no idea if it did and you'll have to stand there and re-engage anyways. You can't double tap a Bill Drill and its still probably the most effective drill for figuring out how fast you should be shooting. Agree with this 100%. I've seen good shooters go A/M on an open target that basically you could reach out and poke the holes with your muzzle if you wanted to. Yes there is such a thing as 'point shooting' and I use it at super close targets but I still need some kind of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Historically, a double tap is two aimed shots fired very quickly. Two shots fired quickly with one sight picture was/is termed a "hammer" Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliveb Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 See what you need to see to get your two alphas....but see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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