kcobean Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 Since the shot fired didn't fit in any of the DQ rules it would have required further investigation. If the shooter maintained and the RO confirmed that the gun fired without any trigger manipulation I would have called an unsafe gun and the result would have been the same. The act of being able to duplicate the malfunction was a cherry on top of the ice cream. That seems very logical to me. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Live long and prosper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 OTOH, I personally have never witnessed a slam-fire in 3 years of shooting a couple matches a month (and RO-ing 5 different majors), so perhaps it's not as grave a problem as it sounds. I have seen one in 4 years. As an RO in major matches I have run well over a thousand shooters. Over 1200 just last month at the World Shoot. He was making ready and when he dropped the slide, the hammer followed and the gun went off. Finger clearly out of the the trigger guard. The gun was pointed in a safe direction, in fact the bullet hit a target. I know him and he is very good about keeping his guns in good working order. In this case a new part failed. I have seen only one, but it was at an outlaw gun match a couple of years ago. The competitor was making ready with his pistol and the gun went off when he stroked the slide. The guy running him cleared him, he went and got a new gun, then shot the CoF--yes, they gave him a reshoot. He never shot the stage, right? This happened before the beep? Then it's not a reshoot per se..... Yeah, my bad--it happened during "make ready" and before the beep. So they gave him an alibi, rather than a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I just took the NROI class this weekend with George Jones. This topic came up a few times. Based on those discussions, I believe it should have been a DQ. Shooter is always responsible for the gun....period....whether it was an AD caused by his finger or by malfunction. "10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. " The only time the shooter wouldn't be responsible would be if he were clearing the gun and the round didn't eject and the round was detonated when the slide was closing "10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply." "Detonation .......................Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retract- ed, when a round is dropped). " +1 I also took the NROI course with Troy McManus in August of this year and this sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." The gun was NOT ready to fire...it fired... it has to be ready to fire in order to fire!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) OK.. First things first, this did not happen during the Make Ready.... Let me say this once more so everyone is clear. This did not happen during the Make Ready. Second, a load/reload as defined in the glossary in the 2014 Rulebook has the phrase "Ready to Fire", this phrase is not clear to some/everyone/ANYONE. Does Ready to Fire indicate the physical mechanical nature of the firearm being ready ( I think it does), or is it talking about the shooter being ready (I think it does not), or is it talking about the gun being up on and on target after a brief jog to the next array and sight picture (I really don't think so). So lets go with the only one that it could mean, the firearm is mechanically ready. So we not have two very important facts laid out and defined, so in this case the shooter was already on the clock, loaded his pistol, Not Moving, finger out of the trigger guard, and a round went off. this round did NOT go in an unsafe direction, did NOT travel over the berm, and did NOT impact with in a 10' area of the shooter. So no you cant DQ them for any of the actions under 10.4 .... EDIT: And then you would apply the rest of the rules that would apply to this case such as 5.7.7 and 5.7.7.1 . I don't really know how else to say this. I know this topic is/will be talked about at RO/CRO classes and will be for years most likely. Edited November 22, 2014 by Nghthwk1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Good discussion. I agree! I'm the CRO that DQ'd the shooter in question and while I didn't agree with the RM at the time, having had time after the fact to walk through the specific definition of "loading" and to analyze the scenario against all of the other possibly applicable rules, I'm glad he overturned my decision and allowed the shooter to continue. The real bummer is that the shooter brought a known bad gun to a major match and ultimately it ruined his match because he took a zero for the stage. There's a lesson there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." The gun was NOT ready to fire...it fired... it has to be ready to fire in order to fire!!! I see how you are seeing it, however, the gun fired...it was capable of firing at that point when the slide slammed shut...but at no point was it "ready to" fire...it went from "loading" straight to fire...it's like going from "are you ready" straight to the "beep"...there was no "stand by"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Reloading: The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).... Stealthy draws our attention to an interesting point. (Edit: racerba recognized this in post #17 of this thread) "Ready to fire" = operator's option/choice to fire, or not to fire Any other description would fail to be accurate: either it can't fire (therefor it's not "ready to fire"), or it's firing (and can't not fire [intentional double negative] - therefor it's not "ready to fire"). The event being discussed, if I understand the specifics correctly, the gun mechanically failed and skipped the option not to fire - it went straight to "fire". There wasn't an option for the user to (fire) or (not to fire), so it was never "ready to fire". This would support Stealthy's position that the reload had not been completed, 10.4.3 would apply, and the DQ would stand. agreed. the "AND ready to fire' part is key. it's not just the slide in battery that indicates loading is complete. it's the slide being in battery AND the gun being ready to fire. In this case the gun never reached that condition. it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Wut? Purely for the sake of my curiosity, what mechanical change after the slide is forward is necessary before the gun is considered "ready to fire"? (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Perfect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Wut? Purely for the sake of my curiosity, what mechanical change after the slide is forward is necessary before the gun is considered "ready to fire"? (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Ready to fire means the gun is in a state where it is ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired...the gun was never at this state of being "ready"...it went from loading directly to "fire"...it was never at the state of being "ready" to be fired... Capable of firing does not mean ready to fire...Just because it fired means it was capable of firing...it does not mean that it was at a state where it was ready to be fired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Wut? Purely for the sake of my curiosity, what mechanical change after the slide is forward is necessary before the gun is considered "ready to fire"? (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Ready to fire means the gun is in a state where it is ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired...the gun was never at this state of being "ready"...it went from loading directly to "fire"...it was never at the state of being "ready" to be fired... Capable of firing does not mean ready to fire...Just because it fired means it was capable of firing...it does not mean that it was at a state where it was ready to be fired... Can you point me to that definition of Ready to Fire in the rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Wut? Purely for the sake of my curiosity, what mechanical change after the slide is forward is necessary before the gun is considered "ready to fire"? (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Ready to fire means the gun is in a state where it is ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired...the gun was never at this state of being "ready"...it went from loading directly to "fire"...it was never at the state of being "ready" to be fired... Capable of firing does not mean ready to fire...Just because it fired means it was capable of firing...it does not mean that it was at a state where it was ready to be fired... Devils advocate here, how long exactly is the waiting period? you said "ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired" but from the way you say it I think you really mean "ready AND waiting" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 it fired before it reached the 'ready to fire' condition. Wut? Purely for the sake of my curiosity, what mechanical change after the slide is forward is necessary before the gun is considered "ready to fire"? (Kinda prima facie evidence that it was ready to fire in that it DID fire, you'd think. How is actually firing evidence that it wasn't ready to fire?) Ready to fire means the gun is in a state where it is ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired...the gun was never at this state of being "ready"...it went from loading directly to "fire"...it was never at the state of being "ready" to be fired... Capable of firing does not mean ready to fire...Just because it fired means it was capable of firing...it does not mean that it was at a state where it was ready to be fired... Devils advocate here, how long exactly is the waiting period? you said "ready or waiting to be manipulated to be fired" but from the way you say it I think you really mean "ready AND waiting" Anything more than instantaneous would be a waiting period. If it's instantaneous, then there is no waiting period, or a period where it is in a state that is "ready" to be fired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Clearly the NROI has to clarify the definition of loading and reloading. I noticed that the original definition of "reloading" in the proposed 2014 rule changes read as follows: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the competitor is ready to engage targets again. Apparently, this was changed before the rulebook was finalized. Not sure what the reason was for the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) Can you point me to that definition of Ready to Fire in the rule book? It's not in the rule book because one would expect everyone to know the meaning of the word that is being used to define another action...in this case - "ready". I guess you want me to define all the words in the paragraph then??? Since you do not know the meaning of the simple word of "ready", let me point you to Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ready If you will notice, all the definition says it is "available" for immediate use...or something like that The gun that fired was not available for immediate use...it discharged without being available... Should i give you the definition of "available" also? OK: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/available It says "ready" for use... If the gun went off, it was never in a state of "ready", was it? and it was not available for use, prior to the first shot, was it? Definition: Loading ............................ The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire. I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "insertion"!!!!! I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "into"!!!!! I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "forward"!!!!! Edited December 12, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Can you point me to that definition of Ready to Fire in the rule book? It's not in the rule book because one would expect everyone to know the meaning of the word that is being used to define another action...in this case - "ready". I guess you want me to define all the words in the paragraph then??? Since you do not know the meaning of the simple word of "ready", let me point you to Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ready If you will notice, all the definition says it is "available" for immediate use...or something like that The gun that fired was not available for immediate use...it discharged without being available... Should i give you the definition of "available" also? OK: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/available It says "ready" for use... If the gun went off, it was never in a state of "ready", was it? and it was not available for use, prior to the first shot, was it? Definition: Loading ............................ The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire. I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "insertion"!!!!! I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "into"!!!!! I don't see anywhere in the rule book defining the word "forward"!!!!! You redefined "ready to fire" as sitting there ready to fire. As the slide closes and the gun goes into battery it is ready to fire demonstrated by the fact that it did fire. I was just wondering if you found a definition I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 You redefined "ready to fire" as sitting there ready to fire. As the slide closes and the gun goes into battery it is ready to fire demonstrated by the fact that it did fire. I was just wondering if you found a definition I didn't. There is no definition in the rule book because I don't believe that the rule book believes in defining every single word that is used to define other words... Please read my whole post!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't RE-defined anything...I showed you the definition of what the word "ready" means. Ready is ready...it is a common word commonly understood by most everybody else and defined by Webster...AS I SHOWED YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please refer to the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that the gun fired, yes, I will agree that it was capable of being fired, but it does not mean it was ever in the state of being "ready" to fire...IT FIRED...skipping the "ready to fire" part !!!!!!! It's like going from "are you ready" to the "start signal"...skipping the "stand by" part... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 You redefined "ready to fire" as sitting there ready to fire. As the slide closes and the gun goes into battery it is ready to fire demonstrated by the fact that it did fire. I was just wondering if you found a definition I didn't. There is no definition in the rule book because I don't believe that the rule book believes in defining every single word that is used to define other words... Please read my whole post!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't RE-defined anything...I showed you the definition of what the word "ready" means. Ready is ready...it is a common word commonly understood by most everybody else and defined by Webster...AS I SHOWED YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please refer to the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that the gun fired, yes, I will agree that it was capable of being fired, but it does not mean it was ever in the state of being "ready" to fire...IT FIRED...skipping the "ready to fire" part !!!!!!! It's like going from "are you ready" to the "start signal"...skipping the "stand by" part... Guess we just need to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 ktm300 next time you get the "are you ready" command pull the gun and start shooting and see what happens. Use the "I must have been ready due to the fact that I started firing" defense:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 We all have our opinion. There are distinct commands with specified time limits in one situation and none in the other. There is no correlation. Again, I am happy to agree to disagree. This horse has been dead for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Capable of firing does not mean ready to fire...Just because it fired means it was capable of firing...it does not mean that it was at a state where it was ready to be fired... I think the definitional difference we have here is that you seem to be thinking of "ready" in terms of the shooter. I'm thinking in terms of the gun. (And I believe that is the way the rule is written.) The gun was ready to be fired. How do we know? It fired. Was the shooter ready to fire? That's something else. And it doesn't matter. After all, an AD often happens WHEN the shooter isn't ready to fire, but does so anyway. As such, "ready to fire" by the shooter is NOT the defining characteristic. Deacon, with regard to: "The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the competitor is ready to engage targets again." I'm glad that version didn't actually make it into the rulebook---otherwise when I'm reloading on the way to a new array, even if the mag is in in the first step, according to that rule the reload wouldn't be finished until I actually reached a point where I could see the next array, AND decided to engage it. I'm not saying that is what it was meant to say---but that IS what it would have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The problem with arguing about every word being listed in the rule book is that the rule book defines some words waaaay different than the normal person would. Case in point? AD Any rational person knows what an accidental discharge is but the rule book defines it different. This being the case maybe "ready to fire" needs to be defined since there is obvious disagreement between so many rational minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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