Ssanders224 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc...snip No, a shooter is bumped to open because they failed to satisfy the the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire. Well, yea. If your equipment violates the Production division restrictions, then you presumably have an advantage over the rest of the field. That's why there are restrictions. The shooter violated none of the division requirements during a scorable stage run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) The rules do not differentiate between "scorable" and "non-scorable" stages. The competitors magazine had too many rounds in it after the beep. There is no discretion - he broke the rules and should get bumped to Open. I tell my kids that there is justice, and there is the law, and the two don't always coincide. This is a case in point, but it is clear-cut to me and there is no reason to overthink it. Edited September 3, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Troy's been on the job for 2 days, this will be a good question for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Especially since this was a one-off, "too many rounds in the mag on this one stage" type offense, as opposed to a "your equipment doesn't comply with Prod rules for the entire match" type infraction, I'm more inclined to agree with the decision to leave the competitor in production and rescind the move to Open. Same would apply (in my mind) for a "magazine from the front pocket" type situation with a subsequent reshoot. Competitor's performance and placement in the match was 100% not affected by the infraction, there was no competitive advantage, so they happened to get lucky. I supposed the unintended consequence of this is that ROs better not tell shooters they have been bumped to open until after the COF and when all the targets have been scored, or we'll have production and single-stack guys running around trying to earn an RO interference reshoot right after they're busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc...snip No, a shooter is bumped to open because they failed to satisfy the the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire. Well, yea. If your equipment violates the Production division restrictions, then you presumably have an advantage over the rest of the field. That's why there are restrictions. The shooter violated none of the division requirements during a scorable stage run. That may be why the rule is in the book. But as an RO, I need to be able to point to the rule that fits the situation. That rule is 6.2.5.1. "6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score." It says "during a course of fire", so let's review: Did the RO call "Make Ready" (8.3.1)? check Did the shooter have more than 10 rounds in the mag after the start signal(D4-9)? Check Welcome to open? Check... You can then get out your $100 and make a donation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc...snip No, a shooter is bumped to open because they failed to satisfy the the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire. Well, yea. If your equipment violates the Production division restrictions, then you presumably have an advantage over the rest of the field. That's why there are restrictions. The shooter violated none of the division requirements during a scorable stage run. That may be why the rule is in the book. But as an RO, I need to be able to point to the rule that fits the situation. That rule is 6.2.5.1."6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score." It says "during a course of fire", so let's review: Did the RO call "Make Ready" (8.3.1)? check Did the shooter have more than 10 rounds in the mag after the start signal(D4-9)? Check Welcome to open? Check... You can then get out your $100 and make a donation... Yea, except the range officials, and the current DNROI disagree with you. This isn't a hypothetical situation. It happened, and the DNROI was involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 That may be why the rule is in the book. But as an RO, I need to be able to point to the rule that fits the situation. That rule is 6.2.5.1."6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score." It says "during a course of fire", so let's review: Did the RO call "Make Ready" (8.3.1)? check Did the shooter have more than 10 rounds in the mag after the start signal(D4-9)? Check Welcome to open? Check... You can then get out your $100 and make a donation... Yea, except the range officials, and the current DNROI disagree with you. This isn't a hypothetical situation. It happened, and the DNROI was involved. Guess I'm missing something. Did NROI make a response or ruling in this specific case? What was it? Yes, this isn't hypothetical. The shooter started with 11 rounds, and that's a clear bump to Open, except that some folks are arguing that it "shouldn't" be a bump because he re-shot the COF (BTW, why was the re-shoot?). He *did* shoot the COF with improper equipment, didn't he? That's not hypothetical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 OP- wrong start position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Guess I'm missing something. Did NROI make a response or ruling in this specific case? What was it? From the OPs statement, I'm guessing the shooter was put back in Production, check out the first post... ("...gets put back in production.") That was not a DNROI response but it sounds like a ruling at a match so it could be considered a precedent. I'm sure the OP will fill us in soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 --- snip --- Yea, except the range officials, and the current DNROI disagree with you. This isn't a hypothetical situation. It happened, and the DNROI was involved. Cool. But, I would still make that call and if one of those folks were match officials (CRO, RM) etc, I would have them walk me through the rule book showing me the logic of their decision and I would take it as a learning experience. Until then, count to 10... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The "it's the same as a foot fault" argument holds no water. Commission of a 'foot fault' results in a procedural penalty covered in 10.2, and the penalty is specific to (only) the CoF attempt that it occurred in. Division requirements (and failure to satisfy them) are covered in 6.2, and apply to any/all attempts at any/all CoF in the match; any exceptions within 6.2 are clearly stated, but nothing there supports a 'reverse bump' or 'voided bump'. Hypothetical: while shooting a LIII match registered in Production, if I violate Production division requirements on my last stage and get bumped to Open as a result of said violation, and the stage is later thrown out, am I scored in Open? If you answer "yes", then please explain how this hypothetical is significantly different from the OP's situation. If you answer "no", then please explain how the rule book supports your position. Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Bumping someone to Open is a complicated issue. If they are found shooting a gun that doesn't fit the division then it's pretty clear cut. But this particular situation doesn't refer to something that blatant. 6.5.2.1 states, in part, "...during a course of fire..." That means that once the infraction is observed, the rule has been violated. It doesn't matter if the stage is reshot or even if it was never finished due to an equipment malfunction. It's technically no different than if they were out there with the wrong gun. The problem, for me, is that presumably this is a one time error, a mistake, a misunderstanding. Moving someone to open for this is a pretty drastic penalty. I know, that rules are rules are rules. I'm just saying that it's a bit heavy handed and that tends to make us want to give the guy a break. Particularly since I've seen this happen to shooters who didn't know better when there is an unloaded start. Sorry Graham, You almost always make a lot of sense but you are off base on this one. I have been bumped to Open for the same infraction and I have bumped several shooters for the exact same thing. We can't start giving breaks to shooters because we think an action is too heavy handed. The thing about rules is they must be consistent for everybody. If RO's start giving breaks to shooters and others don't that will lead to major problems. I agree on the move to Open and staying there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc... If the stage run in which the violation (advantage) occured no longer counts, then they (in this particular case) no longer have an advantage over the rest of the field. If I foot fault on my first run, then re-shoot, my foot fault penalty is erased. Same principal. a move to open is totally different than earning a procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 If DNROI let the guy carry on in Production then truly, not much has changed on that end. I have never believed the DNROI should hold such power. We are letting one person, ONE, make a call that will stand as the law of the land based simply on his opinion or interpretation of a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 So what we are saying is if you get a penalty what ever it is,and get mandatory reshoot,all is forgiven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The move to Open "is final." 6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Masters decision on these matters is final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Full text: 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitors equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. 6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Masters decision on these matters is final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 So what we are saying is if you get a penalty what ever it is,and get mandatory reshoot,all is forgiven? I don't think a move to Open is a penalty per say. Sure it hurts but it is not listed in the procedurals section of the book. I think if you foot fault (procedural) and then get a reshoot, it goes away. But a move to Open is for a division requirement infraction and I don't think that should go away with a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The only way I can see the competitor being bumped to open and then having it rescinded is if they failed to fire any shots. The rule is 10 rounds after the start signal. If they were caught with 11 rounds, AND the COF was stopped due to an incorrect start position prior to the start signal being given, we did not get a true start. If the competitor then said something to the effect of that is good because this is my mag with 11 rounds so I need to download it by one, I can see the bump to Open and the reversal by the RM because it was corrected prior to their restart. A ruling that is similar is 5.2.4 which deals with magazine placement But, being as we are talking a "Reshoot" that says the COF was started due to the start signal being given. Therefore I do not see how it can be overturned according to the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Interesting conundrum and I agree it seems to be a grey area. I'd be interested to hear what NROI has to say about this one. My first thought was you can't unring the bell, but as was pointed out in the example of a foot fault if for whatever reason the shooter is given a reshoot then the procedural goes away (provided they don't fault the line in the reshoot). I can kind of see it both ways, but the foot fault example (or any other procedural) is a scoring decision that applies to that particular run. A dq or bump to open is not a scoring division and doesn't apply to a particular run, but to the match in general. I've hemmed and hawed all day on this, but I think the shooter should stay in open. Shooting open isn't like being dq'd or kicked in the nuts or anything. You're still in the raffle and you still get to shoot everything for score. You can still compare your scores to the other production guys and know how you did. If I were shooting production, I'd still be mentally adding in that shooter's score to compare my own results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The move to Open "is final." 6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Masters decision on these matters is final. Actually, that says the rangemaster's decision is final, not that the move to open is final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) The move to Open "is final." 6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Masters decision on these matters is final. Actually, that says the rangemaster's decision is final, not that the move to open is final.Yes, but it's actually the RM who makes the decision to move to Open. That decision is final.That's why I went back any posted the full 6.2.5 rule set. Edited September 4, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 So, does 'final' mean 'not subject to arbitration'? or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1v3t0x0 Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 If DNROI let the guy carry on in Production then truly, not much has changed on that end. I have never believed the DNROI should hold such power. We are letting one person, ONE, make a call that will stand as the law of the land based simply on his opinion or interpretation of a rule. So since everyone seems to have an opinion on this situation let me put my .02 in since I am the RM that made this call. This wasn't even the most interesting issue at this match so I am astounded that this is what you are all choosing to focus on. Let's get the situation straight first. This was on staff day, and the entire (RO) squad shot the COF with the slide locked back. Since 8.1.3 was not met the COF should never have been started per 8.3.1. Since that condition was not met the competitor should not have been started. On that note, since there was no competitive advantage gained on a scored COF there was no bump to open. This also happened all at once, he technically never got bumped to open, the situation was explained to me and the entire squad was ordered to reshoot. I also discussed this issue with the 3 other RMs on the range including the new DNROI and ALL agreed that this was the correct action for this situation. What is more interesting to me is the fact that people, certified ROs included, don't understand the ready conditions as laid out in the rule book. Why do things have to be spelled out in lengthy detail when they are in the book? My advise is to go through the RM course, run a few LIII matches and make these decisions for yourself. Regardless of your opinion, do something about it and STOP BITCHING ON THE INTERWEBS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Interesting because from the shooter's perspective (we've had personal conversations about how this went down) he was 100% moved to open then you later came by and said something like "you get to reshoot and you're back in production". He has posted in this thread actually so maybe I'm wrong but what he said to me: "I always start with 11 in one mag, load it then shoot a stage like everyone else and I forgot about it, I knew I screwed up, I was ready to swallow my pill, I didn't campaign for a reshoot, it was later in stage when RM came back and issued those who started with slide back to reshoot he said your put back in production" Now back to your matter of the last line - this actually isn't one bit bitching - if you actually READ the entire thread - its more of a fact of what to do in the future - there is nothing in the rule book that either supports or negates your decision - things like this happen - and should be brought up, discussed, and the best collectively try to find the solution together in the rule book. I don't see anyone calling you out for making a horrible call - more of a curiousness of what should have happened since this really isn't defined in the rule book either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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