M ammo Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 The 3 Gun Pilgrimage. For me and Family! We had a great time,, Thanks to all the Folks that make this match possable! RO' S YOU ROCK! JJ and Denise,, you did GOOD, Again,, ,, and I'll say it again,, JJ, on the Rifle tgt's,, The Backers Were great,, they helped make the stages, fair, that's all,, I want as a Competitor is """"Fair,""""" !!!!!!! the stages were fun and challenging,, Thanks to JP! and wow the Plus One Son got the JP rifle! talk about a happy Kid! Never saw him that happy!! Great to see all the New and Old 3 Gun Family,,, ,,,,,, Can't wait to do it again,, Jim!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Long Range Rifle target presentation was well done this year. However... target presentation during the match was fairer for some than others. Stage 2, for example all 4 rifle targets had bright yellow backers and were easy to locate during our walk-thru. We were not allowed to walk up to the rifle positions after the first shooter was started, so there was no opportunity for the shooters to identify a problem with the targets. Heavy metal shooters were moved to the back of the shooting order. When it was my turn (7th shooter on the squad), I ran up to the sticks and dropped my gun down on the targets on the right side and all I could see was dirt. Backers had apparently fallen off and this was not corrected. The targets by that time were well beaten and blended in beautifully with the background mud. The RO did not say a word as I searched for the targets from each of the 3 positions. I do not know when the backers fell off, but I know that at least some of the first shooters on our squad got a bright yellow backer on the targets and some (including me) did not. I know that the schedule for this match is always a challenge... but something should have been done, and needs to be done to fix this "opportunity" for future events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I'm the RO from Stage 2. That stage had Issues when It came to the rifle targets as you explain as above. The Biggest issue we had with that stage, it was running behind the whole time and the turn around time for the stage was around 8 mins per shooter. We needed to stay under 6 minutes to get the stage running on time or would cause a huge backlog. In between the squad walkthroughs I personally went to every rifle target to paint the steel target and the backers. I went through over 8 Brand new backers and Repaired them a countless times, also rifle steel was being Obliterated due to 308 shooters. I brought this up to the Area Caption and his standing order was if a backer blows off to not stop the stage and just have the shooters go through the stage anyways. As a 1x shooter myself, I understand how important being able to see the targets are with a rifle and when certain backers did get blown off I made a call if I could still see the target and its shape with my naked eye then it shouldn't be a problem with a scope shooter. I did on occasion replace backers on targets between shooters when I felt the target were un recognizable, as you said targets would start out Bright and yellow and several shooters in they would start becoming Orange and dull. I didn't know about the "Wasn't allowed to walk up to the rifle portion after the first shooter starts" until later, I never made it too any of the shooter stage briefs due to being out in the field to repair the targets, for that I'm sorry. He-Man shooters were breaking rifle targets left and right so I made a suggestion to the board RO's if they could ask the He-Man shooters the be put on the back end of the list so just we can get as many shooters through the stage before things broke and we'd had to completely stop a squad from shooting. I heard no complaints from any of the shooters being asked to be put on the back end, and some wanted to shoot there normal spot anyways and we let them. As for not telling you anything, we try not to coach as RO's, though if asked I will tell the shooter what they want to know. I apologies if your experience on stage 2 wasn't a very good, I tried my best. Edited August 17, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Sorry Rookie. Miscommunication is all I can say. I think we got it remedied after you mentioned it as well. I will reinforce for next year! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPeel Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I shot stage 2 in the middle of the 3rd day and it was hot. And I don't think the targets had backers. So seriously Rookie, you're complaining about what? All things considered, the stages were challenging, fair and while the target presentations may not have been ideal for every shooter at all times, we each had to deal with various challenges on each stage which works to even things out. I hope to come back next year with two functioning feet and see how much difference being able to move effectively will make! I am deeply thankful to Denise, JJ, the staff and RO's who worked their asses off to make this possible. My son and I had an awesome time at the match, got our butts kicked, and had a great week at the NRAWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Part of shooting natural terrain matches is that stuff changes. Lighting, weather, removal of vegetation, holes in the ground etc. Some things do not appear until several squads have shot stages. If you are lucky, you might end up with a rotation that has some improvement overall, maybe some deterioration overall, but in general, it usually comes out in the wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Part of shooting natural terrain matches is that stuff changes. Lighting, weather, removal of vegetation, holes in the ground etc. Some things do not appear until several squads have shot stages. If you are lucky, you might end up with a rotation that has some improvement overall, maybe some deterioration overall, but in general, it usually comes out in the wash. The Match this year,, had the best,, rifle tgt, presentation of and five RM3G's I have been too,,,,,,,,,,,, I liked it,, and made sure I told JJ , to his face,,, He knows,,, If I think different,, I tell him,, that too,,, I was very happy this year,,, on tgt presentation,, all the way around,, Now if I can just move fastermm , and not wobble so much,,, wile shooting at them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Part of shooting natural terrain matches is that stuff changes. Lighting, weather, removal of vegetation, holes in the ground etc. Some things do not appear until several squads have shot stages. If you are lucky, you might end up with a rotation that has some improvement overall, maybe some deterioration overall, but in general, it usually comes out in the wash. How true, UNLESS you shoot as an RO, poor guys, always get the shaft Especially on shotgun targets, they may be visible from a small area to start with, for shooter # 321, he has a WIDE open field with no obstructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I shot stage 2 in the middle of the 3rd day and it was hot. And I don't think the targets had backers. So seriously Rookie, you're complaining about what? All things considered, the stages were challenging, fair and while the target presentations may not have been ideal for every shooter at all times, we each had to deal with various challenges on each stage which works to even things out. I hope to come back next year with two functioning feet and see how much difference being able to move effectively will make! I am deeply thankful to Denise, JJ, the staff and RO's who worked their asses off to make this possible. My son and I had an awesome time at the match, got our butts kicked, and had a great week at the NRAWC. Fair question JPeel, I will agree that my "comments" may have the appearance of a complaint to some readers. I will work to improve on my limited communication skills in the future. I did not attempt to suggest in any way that I was the only competitor who shot the stage with backers missing from one or more targets. I was and am suggesting that those who shot the stage with backers missing had a different shooting challenge presented to them than those who shot with backers in place (temperature, precipitation, wind, time of day intentionally omitted from the equation). I like to think of myself as a 3-Gun Competitor and to that end... I accepted the score I earned (with a smile on my face) and did not leave the stage until I had thanked each of the ROs for their effort. To DocMedic (The Stage 2 CRO)... thanks for your comment. I understand the RO,s position (been there, still doing that) regarding coaching. However, I don't think it would have been a "coaching" violation to notify impacted competitors that a backer had fallen off so that we would at least know that something about the stage had changed since the walk-thru. I also understand that once you set precedent, it should be kept consistent for all competitors. My intent (whether or not anyone will agree with me) with the original post was to note that the backer system failed (this year) and that some consideration should/might be given to making a more robust backer "system" to improve performance against the intended punishment in the future. For the record... I don't know how to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the material used in these targets, in a 24" or 30" square mounted on target sticks would do the job as a target backer? http://www.hornady.com/store/Hornady-Self-Healing-Target/ Edited August 18, 2015 by NMBOpen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) We had a great time, we know kinda what to prepare for. We will be back, we will be better prepared - hopefully Great match, had a blast, well worth the 11-12 hour drive Every match has their own way, that's just another thing that makes different matches great. Here's ours, a little different terrain. Edited August 18, 2015 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark97se Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Many thanks to Denise, JJ, and all the volunteers that put on a great match. The stages were challenging and everything was well run. The scenery was awesome. The prize table and awards were very professionally done. I could not ask for more from any match. All the Yackleys had a great time shooting, and I know that little Andrew had fun riding around with Sgt Gill for a day. Looking forward to next year, Mark, Becky, Tim, Sean, and Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I wonder if the material used in these targets, in a 24" or 30" square mounted on target sticks would do the job? http://www.hornady.com/store/Hornady-Self-Healing-Target/ Tom, Those will show no movement at distance, unless people used varmint type bullets. Even Sierra Match Kings probably won't expand enough to make them move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 RM3G #5 for me is now in the books. I tell people that I have learned something at every one of these matches. This year I learned that I will learn to embrace "Sticks", regardless of my vocabulary while I shot stage 2. I had a great time with all my friends, old and new. I was happy to help out my British friends with some equipment. Thank you to Denise, JJ (now Super Senior), and all of the staff. You all have been included as friends for years. I got to meet some forum members that also shot the match. (Maybe I should not where a brightly colored shirt with my name on it. ) To James Peel, I hope your foot is better next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the material used in these targets, in a 24" or 30" square mounted on target sticks would do the job? http://www.hornady.com/store/Hornady-Self-Healing-Target/ Tom, Those will show no movement at distance, unless people used varmint type bullets. Even Sierra Match Kings probably won't expand enough to make them move. I was thinking as a stationary backer, 1-2 yds behind the target so weight does not affect target indicating movement. Edited August 18, 2015 by NMBOpen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the material used in these targets, in a 24" or 30" square mounted on target sticks would do the job? http://www.hornady.com/store/Hornady-Self-Healing-Target/ Tom, Those will show no movement at distance, unless people used varmint type bullets. Even Sierra Match Kings probably won't expand enough to make them move. I was thinking as a stationary backer, 1-2 yds behind the target so weight does not affect target indicating movement. Yes, we (the earlier RM3G crew) tried stationary plywood backers painted white, placed a few feet behind the MGM flasher target, and of course, rain came, frags from bullets splattered up mud and more mud on them backers, rendered them dirt color after a few shooters. I was there as the CRO and couldn't continue to ask my assistant to hump up the side of the mountain (same set up as Stage 9 this year but we started in the bottom of the valley) to repaint/replace the backers so ended up doing more than half of them myself to give the stage assistant a break. The system JJ came up with using velcro and poly boards although not perfect, it worked and fairly economical to replenish. Last year's He Man we had to hump up the hill to replace backers at the 300 and 400 yds, and tell you what, not too much fun in the heat and 2 days straight but it had to be done. Nothing will ever be perfect in all match conditions Edited August 18, 2015 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 I wonder if the material used in these targets, in a 24" or 30" square mounted on target sticks would do the job? http://www.hornady.com/store/Hornady-Self-Healing-Target/ Tom, Those will show no movement at distance, unless people used varmint type bullets. Even Sierra Match Kings probably won't expand enough to make them move. I was thinking as a stationary backer, 1-2 yds behind the target so weight does not affect target indicating movement. Yes, we (the earlier RM3G crew) tried stationary plywood backers painted white, placed a few feet behind the MGM flasher target, and of course, rain came, frags from bullets splattered up mud and more mud on them backers, rendered them dirt color after a few shooters. I was there as the CRO and couldn't continue to ask my assistant to hump up the side of the mountain (same set up as Stage 9 this year but we started in the bottom of the valley) to repaint/replace the backers so ended up doing more than half of them myself to give the stage assistant a break. The system JJ came up with using velcro and poly boards although not perfect, it worked and fairly economical to replenish. Last year's He Man we had to hump up the hill to replace backers at the 300 and 400 yds, and tell you what, not too much fun in the heat and 2 days straight but it had to be done. Nothing will ever be perfect in all match conditions Thanks Pacman. It's true! Also, when you put the backer behind the target a ways, it doesn't present the same from different angles and you can't tell where the target is, because sometimes you can only see one side! We keep working to improve!! The schlep factor makes it difficult. Pacman didn't mention that the 300 and 400 yard targets were on the side of a mountain...no 4-wheeler or anything!! But, he kept them fresh and bright as a daisy...or a black-eyed susan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Shooters - check your emails for a special offer from JP enterprises!!! If it got lost in your spam folder, shoot me and email and I'll let you in on the secret! JP and crew has outdone themselves again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetAwayDriva Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I just wanted to thank Denise, JJ, all the fabulousa RO's and staff, and the NRA Whittington Center, JP and all the awesome sponsors for putting on an awesome match! I had a great time. The stages were a ton of fun and the people were awesome! I can't wait till next year! I just can't promise I won't be chopping down any more trees.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPeel Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Dan, thank you. The good news is that the foot is no worse than before I started. The match was good therapy! You guys who are used to shooting long range with backers or other brightly colored targets are spoiled. All I've ever known in our local natural terrain matches are white, or sort of white, gongs and plates. So the targets at rm3g were beautiful to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I have only shot 5 RM3G's this is the first year, most rifle tgts HAD, Backers,,,,,,,,, I thought they were good and made the over all, shooting experiance MUCH MUCH better,, for all, this is the first year, most rifle tgts HAD, Backers,,,,,,,,, this is the first year, most rifle tgts HAD, Backers,,,,,,,,, Ya,,, I said it a few times,,,,,, Thank you JJ,,,,,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Not really sure where you been shooting RM3G Jim, but we have used yellow backers since 2007 on all long rifle targets over 100 yds... jj Edited August 18, 2015 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Big thank-you to everyone who came out to shoot with us and enjoy the Whittington Center! Wanted to prove my point about 3-gunners being the best people in the world! At this years' JP Enterprises Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, the shooters raised the following for great causes! Junior Benefit: $3800 for NRAWC's Junior Adventure Camp - they've been having trouble getting enough ammo, so they were very appreciative. DAV - Two active duty airforce shot the staff match and then helped reset stage 5 for DAV! I am sending almost $500 there! Thanks Jon and Charlie! The Gill Family - James Gill, wounded vet and Area 1 Captain, has some medical bills of his own, and has two children who are taking WAAAYYYY too many trips to the hospital...Stage 3 - Run by Wayne Alcock and marines Cody Nelson and James Fehr raised over $800 for James' family! And, on stage 4 (the crazy bird stage) we had some young people out working for tips. One of them was a Young Marine raising money for the Raton Young Marines organization which promotes citizenship and patriotism. He took home over $100 for that organization! You 3-gunners ROCK!!! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I also want to say a HUGE thank you to JJ and Denise,and all the hard-working ROs/staff. This match is a really unique experience that I had missed out on for the last few years... coming back was a real treat. This year I was able to shoot the match with my eldest son for the first time. He normally tears up rifle stages at our home range, but JJ managed to teach him, in only three days, the humility that I have been struggling to instill over his entire lifetime. He was duly humbled by the RM3G challenge. We spent the entire 9 hour drive home talking about what he need to do over the next 12 months to be ready to win his Expert Pin at RM3G 2016. Now some observations and (hopefully) constructive suggestions for next year: * I had the same experience as Rookie with backers being missing. In a square range this presents some difficulty for irons/dot shooters, but at a natural terrain match it meaningfully impacts competitive equity. The yellow backers work great when they stay on. Maybe a REALLY large backer (4x8 yellow CorPlast sheet is cheap and durable) screwed to stakes several yards behind the target, coupled with longer legs on the targets to reduce the incidence of mud splatter? Out experience with yellow CorPlast is that even a gray/unpainted target contrasts well, so this may even save time by obviating the need to paint between squads. * A few times I saw a He Man shooter break a long-range target. I don't know whether the failure mode was common, but on one occasion I think it was a broken leg (rebar?). Maybe using a longer pivot bar and TWO sets of legs on each side might significantly reduce the incidence of having to shut down the stage to perform such a repair? * The long-range targets used at RM3G seemed to indicate well when hit lower down on the target face, but hits higher up seem to indicate progressively less well. I saw numerous examples of folks hitting the target face with a noticeable thwack but the ROs not calling the hit as they did not see the flash card indicate strongly enough. One stage was calling all such thwacks as hits (they were close enough to make the call easily) but others were not. Again, can be a competitive equity issue depending on the RO holding the timer. I don't really know what the answer is - we have the same problem with our own MGM Flash targets. I guess the answer is for the competitors to aim low and/or run heavier bullets. * The water jugs were sometimes located quite a way away from the stage start areas - not really convenient to grab a drink when you are watching and waiting to shoot. For the few stages that were not vehicle-accessible, this means a lot of folks may not have been hydrating as they should... I know I was not. At high elevation, the importance of staying hydrated is not something everyone is as aware of as they should be. Please make drinking water more accessible at the stage start locations. * Slugs are expensive and I have two children to put through college... the way I shot, they had better get good scholarships. If I have a rifle strapped to my back, why am I engaging 90 yard targets with slugs? * Some of the rifle shooting positions were very unstable - ladders, shooting sticks etc. Yes, they are the same for everyone, not a competitive equity issue. However, such challenges may be beyond a significant number of shooters, resulting in a high number of time-outs causing the stages to run long. Maybe a few less of these more challenging shooting positions would make life easier and less stressful on the ROs trying to run the stage on schedule? * It seemed like every stage was uphill... is there any downhill terrain available to you at NRAWC? * The team shootoff was great to watch. Hopefully participation will be even better next year. I did not participate in the team event as I don't like the distraction from the main match... can you see a way to run the team event entirely on the Sunday morning when the match is over? * The prize table was awesome as always. I like the single table format, and was pleased to see it run quickly and efficiently. Again, it was an AWESOME match.I am sure any and all observations being made by folks in this forum are aimed at making future matches still more awesome Edited August 18, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maize Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I also would like to thank the Johnsons and the whole staff. The match was awesome. Going to send a donation and a THANK YOU to the Whittington Center today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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