Steel vs Plastic

[robport]

I've been shooting an XDM 4.5 9mm for about half a year. I'm much more accurate with my SS 1911 .45, but can't find a doublestack 9mm 1911 to try (without buying one)

For people that have used both:

Are there any advantages to switching to the 1911 style doublestack 9mm? I don't expect to be carrying it concealed.

What are the advantages of the polymer ones?

I first thought of a witness match, but since I may have to deal with EAA again (I had a polymer witness), I've ruled that out, which leave the 2011 styles.

TIA

[v1911]

2011 have the advantage of a wider magwell while still providing that 1911 familiarity. It does feel different in the hands than a standard 1911, but I prefer it.

I've run stock 126mm mags without issue. Some people have reported issues with mags but generally those have been tampered with. They are also more costly than a polymer style mag.

Most of what may be a pro or con may be subjective. Cost, balance, controls, weight, finish.

Does having a 2011 make me a better shooter? That's debatable at my skill level. IDPA is a game and the excuse I used to justify purchasing a 2011. If I'm going to play a game, I'm going to use equipment that suits my tastes whether it provides and real competitive advantage or not.

A word of caution:

I've posted this warning numerous times. Once you start shooting 2011s, you will lose some enjoyment of shooting any other pistol you own. Enjoy.

[SWHlctx]

Thanks for posting the topic. I shoot an M&P Pro 5" in ESP and have been toying with the idea of getting an STI Eagle 2011.

I'm working on convincing myself getting an Eagle is just the ticket to making MA. Only problem is one of the instructors I work with keeps telling me if I took the $$$ the Eagle cost and invested it in good training and practice ammo I would be better off.

SWH

[bajaholic]

I started by shooting a Steyr(s), it is a great gun and I truly enjoy taking it to the range, carry etc... But then I Purchased a Para (2011) for the "games", No comparison for me, and like it is said above, don't want to look back....

But just to be clear, there is a number of people we shoot with that use the plastic guns and they are WAY better shooters on every facet than me..;.

It is the shooter more than the gun... But if you need an excuse to get a new gun, yea.... it's WAY better!

[Jim Watson]

Are there any advantages to switching to the 1911 style doublestack 9mm?

Not many that I can see. You would be able to start out with 11 in your first magazine and save the Barney.

Otherwise, a single stack 9mm 1911oid is great for ESP.

[Bob Hostetter]

As v1911 said the main advantage is the larger magwell opening which should allow for a more reliable and quicker reloads.

[Tom C]

Plastic is a complete misnomer. The most popularly manufactured firearms that might be refered to as "plastic" are no more plastic than clips are magazines. It's appreciated that some people prefer metal over polymer...but refering to a polymer as plastic is about as accurate as refering to metal firearms as recycled beer cans.

Thank you for putting up with my rant.

Tango Charlie out.....

[Jim Watson]

Which must make a lot of people wrong:

Wikipedia: Plastics are typically organic polymers of high molecular mass, but they often contain other substances.

American Heritage: Plastic: n. Any of various organic compounds produced by polymerization, capable of being molded, extruded, cast into various shapes and films, or drawn into filaments used as textile fibers.

Collaborative International: Plastic: n. A substance composed predominantly of a synthetic organic high polymer capable of being cast or molded;

Google: Plastic: a synthetic material made from a wide range of organic polymers

Merriam Webster: Plastic: a plastic substance; specifically : any of numerous organic synthetic or processed materials that are mostly thermoplastic or thermosetting polymers of high molecular weight

Oxford: Plastic: A synthetic material made from a wide range of organic polymers such as polyethylene, PVC, nylon, etc

[Wesquire]

It is true that plastic and polymer does not mean the same thing, but all plastics are polymers...and polymer guns ARE plastics. It is not a negative either.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Wesquire

[solaritx]

metal guns: weigh more- this means that recoil is "less" (pro) but more difficult to stop in transitions (con). Plastic/poly frames "flex" more than steel/metal frames (pro/con- your choice).

Double stack mags feed quicker than single stack mags (pro for 2011 style/con for a single stack)

As with any, it is more the indian than the bow but it also depends on the guns. I made master in SSP and ESP with glocks. I never had a Glock 21 that I could get the performance out of, went to 1911 .45 and was held back with the single stack reloading issue......went to a 2011 platform in .45 and made master.....for what it is worth.

I would use the "truck driver" test. If I were to become a long haul truck driver, I would look and research what most of the long haul truck drivers were using. There usually is a reason that they use a specific model or models of trucks. Same with shooting. Don't reinvent the wheel. If the top shooters in your area (or nationally) are generally using a type of weapon, there usually is a good reason. That does not mean that specific and special individuals can't beat the snot out of most of us using just about anything....but......logic dictates that those that shoot a lot have already gone over the ground you are thinking about.

Garry N

Edited August 5, 2014 by solaritx

[GMB]

You can't buy your way to master. It takes practice!!!!!!!! There are several top shooters using Glocks, XD's, and M&P's and seem to be doing just fine!!!!!! Spend more time at the range working on your problem area's!!!!!!!!!!!

[solaritx]

I totally agree with xdmmaster- you can't buy your way to master. Often (myself included) individuals "chase" a gun or "tweek" a gun to give themselves that competitive edge. More often it is practice and mental that takes them to the next step. That being said.....rare does one see a Hi-Power or H&P used by the top shooters. There is a reason. Some equipment just lends itself to certain games, others do not.

As pointed out......NOTHING replaces practice.....and the mental ability to squeeze out every ounce of performance in the game.

Garry N

[johnmac]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

[JimmyZip]

Love light guns. Plastic guns are lighter. If you think you need the weight to manage recoil, cool. But the price and weight of the plastics keep me coming back.

[zhunter]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

Was that meant to be a joke?

He has a flashlight hanging off the front of his frame filled with LEAD!

[robport]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

yes, but he could probably use a Raven 25 and beat everyone I know.

[ihocky2]

I have always loved my 1911's. I decided I wanted a double stack 45 for CDP and Limited or Limited 10 in USPSA. Started looking at the common plastic guns and none felt as good to my hand as a 1911. I decided to check out that Para P14.45 and loved it. A little wider than a single stack, but felt much better than the plastics. With the full metal body it definitely reduces the recoil vs. plastic guns that I have tried, allowing faster splits. I am average skill level, so at this point it is not the gun that is holding me back. The difference the gun does make though is how it feels to you. If it feels better in your hand and you control it better than that is the gun you want. Plastic or metal is not the deciding factor, it is which one feels like a natural extension of your hand.

[theogre]

Thanks for posting the topic. I shoot an M&P Pro 5" in ESP and have been toying with the idea of getting an STI Eagle 2011.

I'm working on convincing myself getting an Eagle is just the ticket to making MA. Only problem is one of the instructors I work with keeps telling me if I took the $$$ the Eagle cost and invested it in good training and practice ammo I would be better off.

SWH

I had the same scenario, I bought the eagle and never looked back. Best part about the eagle is throw on a magwel big button mag release and you are ready for limited. I go back and forth I have 126mm mags for idpa abs 140mm mags for limited.

[Rob Tompkins]

As pointed out, training is the key. There is no gun you can go buy that will allow you to go out and shoot at the MA level. However I do believe the ergonomics of the gun can make a difference in how much training is needed to get to a specific level of performance. Shoot what feels good to you and you shoot more and get more out of it faster.

Please note, a 2011 will feel more like a plastic gun than a steel gun. It’s much lighter than most 1911’s and the plastic grip will flex more like a Glock / XD / M&P. However it will have a trigger like a 1911 plus have a larger natural mag well. You can get a steel grip for you 2011 (~$500-$600) that will add ~9 oz to the gun but it will make it very close the IDPA weight limit. You may need to go to a mil-spec guide rod (or even a plastic one) to save some weight and even then an AL mag well may be too heavy unless you mill it down some.

For ESP a 9mm 1911 is a very good choice and you can get an STI Trojan for ½ the cost of 2011 and top of the line mags will also be ½ the cost. In my opinion that is a better choice for ESP.

[motosapiens]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

seems to lose alot to guys with metal guns (like eric and ben, lol).

[zhunter]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

seems to lose alot to guys with metal guns (like eric and ben, lol).

Would Vogel be shooting plastic IF he was not paid to do so? No one knows, and he would never publicly answer that due to his sponsorship. But my guess is no. If plastic was better, Ben would have shot plastic prior to being sponsored.

[motosapiens]

Bob Vogel does OK with the plastic pistol...

seems to lose alot to guys with metal guns (like eric and ben, lol).

Would Vogel be shooting plastic IF he was not paid to do so? No one knows, and he would never publicly answer that due to his sponsorship. But my guess is no. If plastic was better, Ben would have shot plastic prior to being sponsored.

Or maybe there's not a 'better', but just a personal preference.

always fun to troll the folks that like crappy plastic soul-less guns tho.

[davsco]

got a sti 2011 eagle a few months ago in 9mm. i'm definitely shooting better with it than my glock 17 and 34, no question about it. i use in idpa esp and also use in 3 gun and steel matches. i am so happy i got this gun! it's a LOT more money though. the gun is some 3-4x more than a glock and mags are 4-5x. and quite frankly while it runs great (most matches no issues), it doesn't run 100% like my glocks, but to me the tradeoff of ergos, accuracy, etc are worth it.

while i have gotten better, i haven't bumped up a classification rung yet, so the whole indian vs arrow thing holds true.

[Brooke]

"Plastic is a complete misnomer. The most popularly manufactured firearms that might be refered to as "plastic" are no more plastic than clips are magazines. It's appreciated that some people prefer metal over polymer...but refering to a polymer as plastic is about as accurate as refering to metal firearms as recycled beer cans."

This is why the internet is possibly the worst source of information ever invented by mankind. The term polymer used in conjunction with guns is just another word for plastic. Polymer or plastic refers to a series of the same or different organic molecules connected together into a long chain molecule with desirable properties. I shoot polymer (plastic) guns BTW. Chemical Engineer here. If you prefer metal that's great. Not my business, but correct information is my business.

"Would Vogel be shooting plastic IF he was not paid to do so? No one knows, and he would never publicly answer that due to his sponsorship. But my guess is no. If plastic was better, Ben would have shot plastic prior to being sponsored."

This is one of my favorites...it goes to show that if you can shoot, you can shoot anything. The corollary to that theorem is that if you can't shoot you can't buy your way out of the problem. Until you blame yourself as the limiting factor you'll just get poorer and shoot the same.

[zhunter]

"Plastic is a complete misnomer. The most popularly manufactured firearms that might be refered to as "plastic" are no more plastic than clips are magazines. It's appreciated that some people prefer metal over polymer...but refering to a polymer as plastic is about as accurate as refering to metal firearms as recycled beer cans."

This is why the internet is possibly the worst source of information ever invented by mankind. The term polymer used in conjunction with guns is just another word for plastic. Polymer or plastic refers to a series of the same or different organic molecules connected together into a long chain molecule with desirable properties. I shoot polymer (plastic) guns BTW. Chemical Engineer here. If you prefer metal that's great. Not my business, but correct information is my business.

"Would Vogel be shooting plastic IF he was not paid to do so? No one knows, and he would never publicly answer that due to his sponsorship. But my guess is no. If plastic was better, Ben would have shot plastic prior to being sponsored."

This is one of my favorites...it goes to show that if you can shoot, you can shoot anything. The corollary to that theorem is that if you can't shoot you can't buy your way out of the problem. Until you blame yourself as the limiting factor you'll just get poorer and shoot the same.

Then why don't PGA Tour Pros play Dick's Sporting Goods clubs they buy off the rack? Same principle.

Sorry, but as a former professional golfer and psychology major, you are dead wrong. A fancy gun will not take you to another class, but using a certain platform can produce better results. But just like golf, we all have different needs. If Vogel likes a light POLYMER gun so much, why does he add all the weight when possible?