IDSA -- new shooting sport is organizing

[rhino]

Who/what is preventing the CCW types from coming and shooting USPSA stages "their way" right now?

That's the million dollar question that's been around since IDPA was just a concept floating around various e-mail groups. I've yet to hear a very good answer.

[raz-0]

Who/what is preventing the CCW types from coming and shooting USPSA stages "their way" right now?

That's the million dollar question that's been around since IDPA was just a concept floating around various e-mail groups. I've yet to hear a very good answer.

I'll take a guess... winning. despite the fact that it isn't a game or something like that. If it isn't the winning, it might be the classification. DO they just want to sling lead down range and practice? Or do they want to be measured? Have someone more "experienced" than themselves tell them if they did the right thing or the wrong thing the right way or the wrong way.

Just a thought.

[EricW]

You guys are not separating *reality* from *perception*. You have to keep in mind when dealing with people that *perception* carries far, far more importance than reality. The overwhelming *perception* is that there is no place for IDPA'ers in USPSA. MARKETING is the tool by which one changes that perception.

It's fundamental human nature that I got to learn about the hard way. You can have it for free, if you so choose.

[revchuck]

Eric - There's no such perception where I live, at least among the already-active shooters. In the SW LA/SE TX area, there are a bunch of folks who shoot both. I'm the local IDPA MD and I shoot USPSA Production. My FLD is an A class Open shooter who digs out his .40 Limited gun to shoot ESP with us. Many shooters have Glock 34/35s just so they can shoot both disciplines with the same gun.

I don't know how USPSA HQ arranges with the gunzines for coverage, but for folks who only know about "combat" competition through reading, HQ could try to increase gunzine coverage of the Factory nationals and the top Production and Revolver shooters.

On a local level, USPSA shooters who have IDPA-legal gear (or something close to it - what constitutes "legal" is up in the air due to the publishing of a new rulebook with a bunch of questionable areas) could show up at a local IDPA match and talk about the similarities between the disciplines. The acrimony that existed earlier between the two organizations has pretty much evaporated. I don't see it as an either/or situation, but as a both/and thing.

[Gun Geek]

IDSA, if it actually turns out to be something, is in direct competiton with IDPA.  How can anyone NOT believe that IDPA really, in a major way, is begging for competition?  This competition can only help IDPA members.  Either IDPA will realize their members are paying customers who demand a product that suits their needs, or IDSA will take the business away from them.

Above is the point that the IDPA BOD needs to listen to.

I am one of those crossdressers that started in IDPA but am now shooting more USPSA matches. What originally drew me was the 3gun stuff. I shoot L-10 (10 rd CMC mags in my Kimber and blaze a way with major scoring).

Eric is right about the perception. I held off (as are some of my IDPA buddies) from shooting USPSA because it is understood that you need high dollar, tuned (often fragile - my perception) race guns. IDPA markets itself as "run what you brung" (though that may be ending now) and this appeals to lots of folks.

The other "problem" with IPSC's image is that, because of all the running and low port shooting it is a young man's game. To some extent this is true. I've seen a couple of older and/or out of shape guys try to shoot a USPSA stage and they aren't even close to competitive - forget about the firearm. A younger guy running a 44 mag revolver can whip them because the large amount of time lost moving. These guys would much rather shoot IDPA where they don't have to move so much and aren't continually presented with the fact that they aren't very agile. The cover photo (and most of the others as well) on Front Sight is almost always of some svelt guy or gal dressed in track outfits haulin ass from one strange shooting position to another (TGO is the the exception, in many ways). The photos in the Tac Journal are of regular older guys and gals peeking around cover or going through a shoot house defending themselves and their family.

This fragmentation from IDPA has already been attempted - it is called Polite Society and it splintered for much the same reason IDSA is splintering - the desire to be free of lots of rules to make it a game. Polite Society went very much into the truly defensive realm with things like: paper targets used only for "standard skills" stages, you can actually "die" (and several times) if you are exposed from cover too long, or peek out of the cover from the same spot twice, etc. Polite Society has not had a huge acceptance because it is a little too "defensive" in nature. Nobody likes to die.

If IDSA makes itself into a mix of IDPA and IPSC it will be succesful at the expense of IDPA. But it will also eat into the L10 and Production crowd. By mix I mean: (sensible) IDPA type rules and stages combined with the more democratic organization and better marketing ability of IPSC. IDPA currently seems to want to piss people off (shooters, sponsors, etc), this opens the door.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

The other "problem" with IPSC's image is that, because of all the running and low port shooting it is a young man's game. To some extent this is true. I've seen a couple of older and/or out of shape guys try to shoot a USPSA stage and they aren't even close to competitive - forget about the firearm

Who/what is preventing the CCW types from coming and shooting USPSA stages "their way" right now?

Geek, this is a very honest assessment that I almost never hear on these forums. Is it possible that those that don't like this aspect of IPSC will never be happy in a truly competitive sport? I wonder if they may just not be comfortable enough with themselves and their ability as shooters to enjoy it. I weigh about 280 lbs and still love shooting IPSC even if I dont win any matches because of my limited athletic abilities. I've often heard the term "level Playing field" used to describe IDPA and this is a bit unrealistic, really. Given any diverse group of individuals competing under a set of rules, there will always be those that are just naturally better than others. I find that this competitive aspect of IPSC is what drives me to improve and I enjoy it. Others that I know do not agree and don't participate for that reason and never will. It is pointless to try to change USPSA/IPSC to try to attract these people. No amount of marketing will make this sport attractive to them.

I used to belong to a club that held tactic oriented shoots with stages similiar to IDPA but with zero timing and numeric scoring. The emphasis was on using cover and tactical elimination of threats. 2 A hits on each target and you had eliminated the threat. We didnt concern ourselves with total points and time scoring. This may be the type of environment that this part of the shooting population are comfortable in and enjoy.

[ranger]

Let me add my 2 cents.......

There are about 150,000 soldiers/marines in Iraq now that are practicing CQB (close quarter battle) and Reflex Shooting skills. Most are carrying an AR15 based rifle with an optic (Aimpoint, EOTech, ACOG, etc.) and many are carrying a Beretta 9 mm pistol.

Most do not realize that the Army and Air Force sponsor USPSA teams.

A lucky few (very few) will be trained by professional shooters who are USPSA champions. All will be trained on techniques in new military shooting manuals that will seem very familiar to USPSA shooters.

I have never seen an ad or invitation to join USPSA in Army Times or any other military publication.

When it was obvious I was going to be mobilized again, I put the Sporting Clays shotguns in the safe and returned to the local USPSA club and shot matches in Production with a Beretta 92FS. I am confident in my shooting skills because of years of competitive shooting.

USPSA should market to the total military force to grow the organization.

[JFD]

The main, yet sort of unspoken difference I see between IDPA and USPSA is the competitive mindset.

You come to a USPSA match and it's no secret that most everyone there wants to WIN. There's probably more mental preparation prior to a USPSA stage than there is for a NASA launch It's obvious and in your face. I'm a competitive person and I really like that aspect of the game. Matter-of-fact, the mental side of USPSA and the advanced gun handling is why I think the sport is actually more useful to the average CCW holder than IDPA.

An IDPA match is pretty much totally opposite from a USPSA match. Visibly wanting to win is frowned upon from my experience. Being told exactly how I have to shoot a COF doesn't thrill me either. After the first stage I don't even care how well or poor I finish. IDPA, from what I've seen in the new rule book, basically caters to new and average shooters(same as the old rules I guess, I just never picked up on it before), so this is a giant difference between the two sports.

At any rate, I still maintain that IDPA and USPSA are different animals and dedicated shooters from either sport are not going to be viable candidates for crossover shooting.

USPSA doesn't do anything that I think drives off new shooters. The rules make a big effort to clear up that a shooter is only competing against folks in their own particular division, and in their own particular class. Not hard to figure out that if you're a D class L-10 shooter, you are not competing against TGO.

Talking to shooters at our club about shooting any of the handgun competitons we offer leads me to believe that 99.9% of them are scared to death of looking foolish. I try to tell them that we could care less how good or bad they shoot, as long as they are safe. Locally at least, IDPA is thought of as easy and relatively cheap, while USPSA is thought of as very difficult and expensive.

While I think the very competitive versus not-very-competitive attitude is a definite factor, the huge difference boils down to the perceptions of easy/cheap versus difficult/expensive.

I now know there's no reason to be scared of shooting any match, but truth be known, I had to be damn near dragged to my first match. I can't come close to describing how bad I feel that I didn't start decades earlier.

[EricW]

$20 says that IDSA falls apart in two years.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

$20 says that IDSA falls apart in two years.

Or sooner.

[geezer-lock]

$20 says that IDSA falls apart in two years.

Might not last that long Eric. Take a look at this:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/defen...ing/message/204

Go to the bottom of this lengthly missive and read the allegation first.

geezer

[Flexmoney]

There have been some GREAT points made in this thread!!

Eric brought up *reality* and *perception*. I have often said that reality = perception. That is not literally true...or is it?

Gun Geek highlighted two of the biggest perception problems that (I think) we face in USPSA...

1. ...that you need high dollar, tuned (often fragile - my perception) race guns. IDPA markets itself as "run what you brung" (though that may be ending now) and this appeals to lots of folks.

Heck...this is also the perception among the ranks of USPSA.

2. The other "problem" with IPSC's image is that, because of all the running and low port shooting it is a young man's game.

That is the perception.

<double-drift alert> Tell you what...I think a lot of shooters hide behind that too. They decide that they are pretty good at stand and shoot, acccuracy, draws and reloads...whatever. But, they fail to learn how to get into and out of shooting positions and such. Our game is not about being able to run fast.

My shooting partner (Steve Anderson) watched as I shot a stage this past summer. After I got done, he mentioned how he seldom sees me run while shooting stages. Now, I don't know if Steve was trying to tell that I needed to move my ass a bit faster, but I am pretty sure that the list of shooters that could have beat me on that stage is pretty short. (And, the the winning factor wouldn't be my glock, nor how fast I can run from A to B.)

ranger, great idea about putting ads in the military rags. I know those Airmen magazines gets read...and read...and read. (There is a lot of "waiting around" in the military.) Heck, maybe we could talk Beretta into paying for the ads???

JFD points out:

While I think the very competitive versus not-very-competitive attitude is a definite factor, the huge difference boils down to the perceptions of easy/cheap versus difficult/expensive.

That needs to be addressed...to get shooters thru the front gate of the range. Because, once we do...

I know know there's no reason to be scared of shooting any match, but truth be known, I had to be damn near dragged to my first match. I can't come close to describing how bad I feel that I didn't start decades earlier.

[JD45]

Recruiting new members may not be easy but I believe that the websites of IPSC and USPSA could include much better marketing.

I used Google to search "IPSC". You find their website but it doesn't exactly grab a newbie. On the USPSA website under "what is practical shooting", here is what you see:

"Practical Shooting attempts to measure the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately with a full power handgun, rifle, and/or shotgun. Those three elements - speed, accuracy, and power - form the three sides of the practical shooting triangle. By design, each match will measure a shooter’s ability in all three areas.

To do this, shooters take on obstacle-laden shooting courses (called stages) requiring anywhere from six to 30+ shots to complete. The scoring system measures points scored per second, then weights the score to compensate for the number of shots fired. If they miss a target, or shoot inaccurately, points are deducted, lowering that all-important points-per-second score..."

If you had never competed before, would those first two paragraphs make you keep reading. Does that intro assure you that a plain factory Glock or a Ruger P-series be O.K. too shoot?

[ysued]

Hello guys, here's my $.02

1) Marketting: IMHO USPSA should distribute Front Sight outside the membership, this way there's an outlet out there for non USPSA members to read and actually get an insight into the organization. This way IMHO, we can grow the organization ans attract someof these shooters that are not happy with IPDA.

2) Scoring: Maybe it's just me but USPSA scoring system could use some help!! The DVC priciple is not evenly weighed!! Speed seems to be more important if not have more wight than accuaracy and power! last years Area 3 i noticed some shooters Blazing through some stages with several Misses and yet score higher than those who shot clean and took just a little longer. I know this subject has been discussed to an extreme in the past but it still bothers some shooters. Seems that in some instances accuracy has actually no weight wahtsoever when it coes to winning a match, as long as you put two holes on the card and do it fater than the other guy, you win. I heard this exact complaint from a Top shooter that rarely shoots IPSC anymore for this particular reason.

Here's the one nobody agrees with me...

3)PRIZE TABLES!!!

Guys, let's be real, why do you go to major matches for??? Shooting??? Fun??? Camaradery??? or......P R I Z E T A B L E?????

In the past the Prize table was a great incentive to get shooters to go to your Big Match. I'm not a Great shooter and I ussually get the bag of Shock Buffs or the Sample packet of Break Free so Prize table is not a big incentive for me. I go to the Area Match or nationals for the fun of shooting, the challenge of the stages, meeting old friends and making new ones, this is what USPSA is for me!! all these great folks getting tougether for a weekend or a week for the same reason, Burning Powder!!!

Should USPSA go away from the Prize Table setting??

The winners or some of the top 16 shooters are sponsored shooter and they promply sell or trade what they win because they are not going to use the guns or product they win if these prizes don't come from the company that sponsors them. This is a sad reality. You should see the ammount of goodies being sold at the end of every major match or back home when the shooters get back.

and finally....

4) SLOTS!!! IMHO this process SUCKS!!! If you don't earn a Slot, you pay more, you are on an eternal waiting list, the at the last moment 100 Slots become available and you are supposed to get Vacation Time, Book Flights and Book Hotels??? THIS IS BS!!! They should Open the Nationals to every member that is Classified, or like IDPA the shooter must shoot a Regional match and be Classified!! back int eold days when the nationals was for the Best of the Best only, USPSA or IPSC then was a small organizations aht the nationsl was no bigger than a local match!! What is USPSA looking for?? a Nationals with 50 shooter?? Or a Money making event with 600 shooters??

I shoot IDPA too, but sometimes the rules PI$$ me off!!! The chaging rules, the range Nazis, the Holster Nazis (not much anymore with the new Rules, I hope) And like back in 1996 when i went to the First IDPA Match here in Columbia, MO I was all for IDPA, I though that this gave me another reason to burn powder and lop lead downrange!! Heck, I love the smell of 320 in the morning!!

I agree with what Eric said, we need more and better Marketting at USPSA and more members are needed. This marketing will send the message that USPSA is for everybody, every walk of life and the handgun you have in your night stand is good ffor competition!!

Thnks for putting up with me

Rant Mode off!

Yamil

DvC

[rhino]

The Yamminator is wise ...

[Flexmoney]

1) Marketting: IMHO USPSA should distribute Front Sight outside the membership, this way there's an outlet out there for non USPSA members to read and actually get an insight into the organization. This way IMHO, we can grow the organization ans attract someof these shooters that are not happy with IPDA.

I've mentioned this one a few times...to those up the ladder.

I think an annual is a great idea. We kinda have one now. It is a start.

What I'd really like to see is a nice, thick, content-rich annual...that is on the newsstands, year-round.

[chuckbradley]

The one we have now is more informational to newbies and filled with ads from companys that want newbies to know who they are. Can you guess how I know this?

[John Thompson]

Some people absolutely have to have the motivation of combat training in order to shoot. Some people THINK they need the combat rationalization in order to enjoy shooting. When they go to the IDPA and get disgusted for what they think isn't tactical enough they are really not seeing the real problem: They don't enjoy shooting. For whatever reason and they're simply transfering that. Think about it; if we could somehow tailor a match to each of these individuals they would still quit sooner or later because in the end shooting matchs don't interest them.

I do a lot of the so-called tactical training. We do simunitions and everything under the sun and let me tell you that no matter what the action shooting sport, it only has a limited relavance to combat shooting. Shooting fast and accurately under stress and that it's it. Period, Alll the tactical hangups like the availability and viability of cover is so rare it's really getting over done; where's cover when the person shooting at you is standing 10ft away? Real life saving shooting skill transends all that.

I shoot competition for one reason: To practice shooting fast and accurately under stress in a FUN game and enviroment. When tactical weenies or obnoxious gun gamers ruin any othose things I take my time and money and go play paintball instead.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Think about it; if we could somehow tailor a match to each of these individuals they would still quit sooner or later because in the end shooting matchs don't interest them.

well said.....I agree completely. It's a waste of time and effort trying to market USPSA/IPSC to people who will obviously never enjoy participating!

[Flexmoney]

Most people don't know what they want...until you tell them.

Who is telling them that they want USPSA?

[dirtypool40]

Eric is absolutely right.  Case in point, I taught a class this weekend to predominately IDPA shooters.  None of them realized that you could shoot the same gun and be competitive in USPSA.  They all thought that you have to spend $3000 to get into the game.  Production, Lim 10, and Revolver have been in existance for what, 5 years, and I still run into this?  Our marketing sux!!

It's not our marketing, it's our press. Who controls the gun rags? What do they say about us and IDPA. I hear that from folks I try to invite to a match all the time. And the "Gun Store Commandos" tell them the same things. And those same goofballs tell them that their newly purchased G27 is the ultimate IDPA gun, and like lemmings the believe it. They tell them what to buy, and that if they do, there's a place they can go and be instantly cool, and even better TACTICAL..

I see some poor schmo come out with some POS like the S&W Sigma or Taurus Millenium, and floppy nylon gear, and you can see how embarrassed he is that he's been scammed!!! Both by the magazines and the jerks in the gunstore. He thought he bought a "race gun" for $300 and finds out he was the one born that minute.

It's pretty simple, people who have no idea about either sport from personal experience already have STRONG ideas from what they read. I know, I was one of them, terrified of IPSC and they "armed track meet" all the gun rags told me it was.

Handgunner is the worst of the bunch, squashing good IPSC coverage and printing tripe like "The Truth about IDPA" as if it was an expose of it's shortsitedness instead of another glowing advertisement written by oe of the cartel. And how about the side bar "Myth of the El Prez"? Yeah, because Haka-rauch can't hit a sub 8 second El Prez, it can't be done. Hell they'll even name their (circa 1998) version the "real" one even though we've been shooting ours for what over 30 years?

It's the press guys, write letters and pester them into giving us a break. We have changed and evolved but their coverage could be reprints of 1994 IPSC-bashing.

[mpolans]

Surprising, since Handgunner used to be THE best magazine for IPSC coverage in the late 80's to mid 90's. Their centerfolds were often tricked out IPSC guns. I wonder what happened???

[Bruce]

EricW and Matthew Mink:

Don't take this as some valid poll (it isn't even close) but I will tell you what the answer to the USPSA marketing thing would be among people I know, all gun owners, some pistol competitors but on a very local level...

USPSA?

The general view is that there is IPSC, and there is IDPA (and then the others like GSSF, ICORE, etc.) The general view is also that IPSC is the sport with optics on pistols, IDPA is where you shoot your carry equipment.

I don't know that it is a failure of marketing, it may well be a failure of people to actually take note.

[rhino]

I think IDPA does a better job on a grass roots level to attract new shooters. By that, I mean I see more IDPA shooters actively trying to interest new people in their game than I see USPSA shooters doing the same thing.

I'm always proselytizing for shooting sports in general, but I focus mostly on getting people to try USPSA/IPSC, 3-Gun, and NRA Action Pistol. I do some for IDPA, but they don't need as much help!

[Matthew_Mink]

EricW and Matthew Mink:

Don't take this as some valid poll (it isn't even close) but I will tell you what the answer to the USPSA marketing thing would be among people I know, all gun owners, some pistol competitors but on a very local level...

USPSA?

The general view is that there is IPSC, and there is IDPA (and then the others like GSSF, ICORE, etc.) The general view is also that IPSC is the sport with optics on pistols, IDPA is where you shoot your carry equipment.

I don't know that it is a failure of marketing, it may well be a failure of people to actually take note.

I see your point, but I still think it goes back to the complete lack of good USPSA marketing. It happened again this past weekend. Talking to someone thinking about coming out and trying IPSC. They never have heard of USPSA, thought that they needed a 'race' gun, etc.. etc... etc... ad nauseum.

USPSA's marketing sucks. People have never heard of USPSA because USPSA does not promote itself to any great level. They've all heard of IPSC though.