IDSA -- new shooting sport is organizing

[EricW]

Some people THINK they need the combat rationalization in order to enjoy shooting. When they...get disgusted for what they think isn't tactical enough they are really not seeing the real problem: They don't enjoy shooting.

John,

That is the most profound statement I've seen posted here in ages.

[smokshwn]

John,

With your permission I would like to add one word to your quote.

"They don't like COMPETITIVE shooting."

In my experience it seems that those who avoid the competitive side of IDPA are the same individuals who are most in favor the more stringent measures.

Thanx, Craig

[JFlowers]

Once upon a time, I was one of those gunrag reading newbies who thought IPSC required a $3000 racegun, then I read some material about Limited 10. Hey I can shoot that with my Ruger P90......

...... and I did. Okay it was a less than competitive gun, but I went, shot, AND HAD FUN! Loads and loads of fun!

Now I bring friends whenever possible. Usually talking to them about Production or Limited-10 and often handing them my guns and gear. We need to be bring a new shooter!

Using Front Sight as a newstand public magazine would be tricky. It would take a different level of writing to take articles from interesting to you and I, to interesting to Joe Blow shooter. Also, and Chuck this is not a dig on you in any fashion, the advertising would have to change. Looking at Nov/Dec 2004... inside cover Infinity Sighttracker, next big ad Brazos Custom BCG Pro Sx, next Shooters Connection with 4 guns 2495, 2295, 1995, 1795, and finally a big ad from SigArms for "reasonable" guns as Joe Blow sees it. Now I understand that high end products have better margins and allow the sponsors to take bigger ads. But the ad space would have to be much more balanced to attract Joe Blow.

But we do need to get the message out, some how....

James

(who now has spent the money for a tricked out L10 and an Open gun as well)

[HeadHunter]

Cost is more of an issue than many people in USPSA realize and it's not just the gear. It's also the round count and the entry fee. Time required is also a major factor.

The outdoor USPSA matches in my state run over 150 rounds per match. If you don't reload, that means you have to buy 4 boxes of factory ball ammo to shoot the match. Even buying it at Wal-Mart, that's close to $50 worth of ammo (.45). For various reasons, the USPSA match fees are also more than IDPA match fees (~$18 vis-a-vis ~$10). Add them together and you've got a $70 cost to shoot for someone who doesn't reload. IDPA runs about half that or less. Several IDPA clubs have gone to a one box format, which makes it really cheap to shoot IDPA.

At the last IDPA club I ran, I noticed that turnout went up when I dropped the round count from 110 per match to 90 rounds. One less box of ammo to buy.

As silly as it sounds, casual shooters don't want to buy spare magazines, either. IDPA shooter can get by with the two magazines that come with the pistol. I would tell people to buy an Uncle Mike's holster, keep your spare magazine in your pocket for the first match, and you'll get an idea of what it's like and whether you'll like it. They've got a $20 start up cost. For USPSA, they've got to buy three more magazines and carriers for them. Even post-AWB, that's another $100.

I don't know how your matches run, but here in Georgia, the USPSA matches generally are all day affairs. The IDPA matches run three hours tops. Frankly there's a lot of waiting to shoot at the USPSA matches. New shooters get bored, sometimes they leave because they have other things to do in the afternoon.

The ten yard movement rule also goes a long way with the old guys. A lot of folks that attend IDPA just aren't interested in running and gunning.

I don't have any axe to grind with USPSA at all. I shoot it occasionally and if it implements the Single Stack Divison, I'll probably shoot it a little more. But just understand, it has a lot more barriers to entry than IDPA does. Depending on how IDSA handles those kind of issues, it may have the same issues.

[John Thompson]

I agree; I get in and out much faster at IDPA matches even with re-shoots. Shooting though in general is a such a time thing. Hours of waiting around and travelng for 2 minutes of trigger time.

[carinab]

Once upon a time, I was one of those gunrag reading newbies who thought IPSC required a $3000 racegun, then I read some material about Limited 10. Hey I can shoot that with my Ruger P90..

And to help perpetuate the myth that USPSA is for rich kids....here's some help from Jim Scoutten's Shooting USA show....I realize that these companies have probably paid to appear. But I would have thought that Glock or S&W or someone else would have paid to have a $500.00 pistol listed....If I remember this episode, Dave Sivigny certainly was in it...

Shoot'n USA 03 Natl's Episode

USPSA's marketing needs to really focus on affordability. An ad with a run with what you brung theme maybe? If the ad already exists, I sure haven't seen it and I read a fair amount of gun literature. And what about (Sorry Rob) the USPSA web page ? I think it needs a re-write to help debunk the myth....Quote:

"It may be that the firearm you already own will be just what you need to get started in practical shooting, but you may learn of other competitive opportunities that will give you that excuse you’ve been looking for to buy a new toy!"

and from the other equipment section:

"In most cases at least one magazine will be included with the firearm when you bought it, but having at least five magazines is desirable to be sure to get you through the various stages in a match."

I don't think I had five magazines for my STI until about two years ago. I never had more than three mags on my belt when I shot a Glock. Back when I shot a single stack when I started, I had three ten round magazines (okay and a couple of icky seven rounders).

[Precision40]

And to help perpetuate the myth that USPSA is for rich kids....here's some help from Jim Scoutten's Shooting USA show....I realize that these companies have probably paid to appear. But I would have thought that Glock or S&W or someone else would have paid to have a $500.00 pistol listed....If I remember this episode, Dave Sivigny certainly was in it...

That's a good point. Showing nothing but $3500 Race guns does NOTHING to help promote the sport. I'm sure quite a few people who are unfamilar with IPSC see those $230 holsters and say "Are you crazy?" Never to be heard from or seen again.

What they need to be doing is showing the $25 Blade-Tech holsters, Glocks, XD's, 1911's or any guns which might be easily recognized by most people who are unfamilar.

[EricW]

And to help perpetuate the myth that USPSA is for rich kids....here's some help from Jim Scoutten's Shooting USA show....I realize that these companies have probably paid to appear. But I would have thought that Glock or S&W or someone else would have paid to have a $500.00 pistol listed....If I remember this episode, Dave Sivigny certainly was in it...

That's a good point. Showing nothing but $3500 Race guns does NOTHING to help promote the sport. I'm sure quite a few people who are unfamilar with IPSC see those $230 holsters and say "Are you crazy?" Never to be heard from or seen again.

Whoa Nellie!!!!!

Let's watch out for the unfair accusations here.

(As far as I know) Nobody pays anybody diddly squat to have a product appear on ANY of Jim Scoutten's shows. Show sponsors are clearly labeled as "sponsors." i.e. Kalispell Cases. What you're seeing on the TV are the products which ShootingUSA is able to get people to send them. And from my few conversations with John Scoutten (Jim's son and partner), that was very difficult for the USPSA episode. John and Jim burn up the phones trying to get great stuff to show, but it is ultimately up to the industry to respond.

If you don't believe me, I'll get the Scouttens on here and you can hear it firsthand.

Finally, a show filled with $350 black plastic pistols would make for BOOOORING television. If it takes a little eye-candy to get people to tune in and get excited about USPSA, so be it.

Most of ShootingUSA's past issues were not of their own making. I'll leave it to Jim and John just how much they want to share publicly. That is the past. The present and the future is that Shooting USA is putting forth enormous efforts to promote USPSA and action shooting. An effort which USPSA is unwilling and/or incapable of undertaking on its own.

(And yes, I personally, am a beneficiary of the Scouttens' generosity and have a vested interest in seeing the goodwill between the Scouttens and USPSA continue into the future.)

If USPSA doesn't like how its FREE OF CHARGE marketing turns out, perhaps it should undertake its own MARKETING PROGRAM. It's spelled M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G for those who have missed my previous 500 posts on the issue.

Finally, the major cost of being competitive in USPSA/IPSC has almost ZIP, ZERO, NADA to do with the cost of equipment. It has to do with the cost of ammunition and other expenses. It's the incremental $200 to $500 a month in ammo, gas, and match fees that burn up the dough. The $3000 race gun is incidental.

[Michael Brown]

Personally I find it to be in the format.

IDPA is directly appealing to the defensive minded crowd. The rules tend to focus on the shooting rather than a number of other factors. While anyone who knows the sport knows that more things go into winning an IDPA match than just shooting, it still has far fewer variables than USPSA and I think this appeals to the majority which is why I believe IDPA grew so quickly.

USPSA matches are won on much more than the shooting and involve things so irrelevent to defensive shooting that the flash becomes what the newbie sees rather than the substance. While some may consider these things (holding a plastic squirrel, shooting while handcuffed, sprinting thru an ocean of targets) fun, most newbies consider them irrelevent.

The other area I think others have touched on is that USPSA caters to the best shooters. All the participants slob all over the good shooters and stroke their egos and the new guys end up feeling inadequate. If you don't think this is true, look at some match ads that welcome all the great shooters by name and then offer a blanket hello/welcome to everyone else or the Front Sight articles that glorify all the good shooters and discuss pre-ordained results at matches. I find that distasteful myself as I only worship one God (or as urban lingo goes "Get off my jock!").

USPSA can run this way. I don't have a problem with it. I love the sport. However if we're truly asking what scares off the newbies, we have to look in the mirror.

Michael Brown

[John Thompson]

The belief that the IDPA is more "defensive shooting oriented" than the USPSA is a total matter of perception. A perception based in part on heavy anti-USPSA rhetoric by the IDPA. As I posted before competition shooting has limited relavance towards real life other than shooting fast and accurately under pressure. As far as "God " worship then we must be shooting diferent matches with different people because I and everyone I shoot with respect top shooters but certainly don't worship them.

[SmittyFL]

Micheal has a point but I see if from the opposite side. USPSA is focused on the "shooting". First off I've got nothing against IDPA I would shoot it if we didn't have 6 monthly USPSA matches around here. But I see it kinda of like cowboy shooting. You dress up in your "tactical" vests and black guns and play cops and robbers. I alluded to this in another post but didn't come out and say it because I don't want it to sound like a ding on any other sport.

If you're advancing and pieing (sp) off corners, that's not really defensive, I'd call it offensive. i.e.-something a cop would do. Which is totally cool, obviously there are a lot of folks that enjoy it. But I wouldn't call the sport more about the shooting than USPSA.

[JFlowers]

The problem with COMPETITIVE DEFENSIVE shooting is how do you score a stage with no rounds fired? I mean isn't that the perfect outcome of a real life hostile situation, that the presence of an armed victim or armed bystander willing to intervene stops the situation before it devolves to gunfire? How do you consider something "good training for the real world" when its starts with the premise that the primary purpose of deterance has failed?

[dirtypool40]

The belief that the IDPA is more "defensive shooting oriented" than the USPSA is a total matter of perception.  A perception based in part on heavy anti-USPSA rhetoric by the IDPA. 

Not just from IDPA HQ but from the gun rags as well, they serve as IDPA recruitment flyers every month. It's shameful, fake expose articles like Handgunner's the "Truth About IDPA".

Also, every gun test you read, even for a sub compact 10mm tells the reader if he buys this, he'll not only be well armed but tactical and ready for top level competition and training at his local friendly IDPA match. Gosh, what a deal.

The difference between the shooting sports is in concepts. NO!! not how their rules or manifestos are written but can you see past what they tell you?

I try to see any stage or match as a series of shooting tests. A stage is like a golf hole, a match like an entire 18 hole course. Taking the stages individually each should test something, the match as a whole should test "every club in my bag". As I came to the match to test my shooting skills I like this approach.

In IDPA they tell you the scenario, the lighting, what you had for dinner, if the "perp" is pissed because the cashier wouldn't accept his double coupons, so you have to shoot with one knee touching the ground, juuuust like this, scowl like that and fire exactly and only three rounds in this order from here.

Somehow they think a detailed fairy tail makes up for weak stage design. How many times can you shoot the same six round string at 5 yards before you cry "ENOUGH!!!"?

Newsflash: Life does not have dance steps and course descriptions requiring four single spaced pages. And when people prep and travel to shoot a COMPETITION they want to test themselves, past 10 yards and for more than 60 rounds.

On the other hand USPSA has blazed the trail for action shooting and learned from mistakes. EVOLVED to the point that they are testing your shooting and don't need to burden you with the other crap. Shooting from akward positions, from "cover" on the move, pie-ing into rooms or around corners, yup they do it all. And Fast, and with precision.

Tell yourself a tactical bedtime story before each stage if you need to, but remember, if you are out there to test your skills and see the best so you can improve, USPSA is where you want to be.

Yes, we have different divisions, and yes we still have areas to improve in and evolve. But like Shannon said, it is about the shooting. To imply that it's only about gear only shows us your info comes from circa 1993 gun rag articles and you don't know what you're talking about.

I wish IDSA a bright future, and hope they learn from "The great failure of IDPA". Hell I hope they put that in their rule book page 1, like IDPA did.

[shred]

Ok.. let's remember Brian's rules.. "this is not the place for defensive/tactical shooting discussions, nor a place to dis other shooting sports.." So far I think it's ok, but it looks like this thread might be drifting the wrong way..

[dirtypool40]

Sorry Shred, guys.

I reread my post and it can come off as a bit of a rant, which was not my intent. Ok, I got a little carried away.

My point was this:

I would like to shoot my carry gun and carry gear, or something close.

I would like the competition to be about the shooting, and test all my skills OBJECTIVELY.

DA guns are harder to shoot well than SA guns. Major is tougher than minor. Small is tougher than full size. Yes, the guy can make the difference, and yes the equipment does make some difference.

My hope is that IDPA and IDSA think through things, adjust and evolve to correct shortcomings.

I haven't heard anyone bring it up, but I would love to see things divided between truly compact and full size.

We could have 6 divisions:

DA Full

DA compact

SA Full

SA compact

REV Full

REV compact.

Let everyone declare major / minor and pull major down to where an Officer's cold make it. (come to think of it, I remember reading on Heinie's site that this was where the first 165pf came from for his SSC match.)

Make the compact "Box" small enough that G22/17 & Colt Commanders can't fit in, but a G19 or Colt CCO can. Might be fun and bring out more real carry guns. I know I would be less likely to "race-ify" some little compact that I actually carried or shoot a full size gun if there was a place for my smaller real carry gun.

Fine Print: In case I left it out, I tend to include it in every discussion about this sort of thing so I am not taken as an un informed basher, I started in IDPA in 1997, and shot nothing else for 2+ years. I have helped run every state match held in my State except one where travel got in the way.

[Michael Brown]

"Yes, we have different divisions, and yes we still have areas to improve in and evolve. But like Shannon said, it is about the shooting. To imply that it's only about gear only shows us your info comes from circa 1993 gun rag articles and you don't know what you're talking about."

Let me just say I never got personal in any of this discussion and I never made assumptions about anyone's background or knowledge.

Now to post this with no knowledge of me is ridiculous. I could be be 70 years old or 12 years old. ( I am 32)

I could have never shot a USPSA match or I could be quite good. (I'm fairly new to USPSA but I should hopefully be classified Master in Production by the time scores are entered in February)

I could know nothing about defensive shooting or I could be very experienced. (I'm no expert but I'm a very serious student)

The point is you don't know and your assumptions smack of not listening to others.

Nowhere did I mention gear. I spoke of irrelevencies in the courses of fire not appealing to new shooters and my distaste for what I perceive as an over-indulgence toward the good shooters.

If you are so inclined, re-read my post and then determine if you should be so impolite to someone who IS interested in USPSA but merely answered what he thought the problem was with USPSA's perception by new shooters.

Michael Brown

[dirtypool40]

I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, lest we get throw off the forums.

Suffice it to say, you and I see very different things in both shooting SPORTS and apparently agree to disagree.

I did not intend my post to be a personal attack on you, in fact my "assumptions" were based on reading hundreds of posts on here, including yours and the ones above it. In my second post I apoligized for beginning arant and tried to offer positive suggestions.

We are headed out early to avoid the blockades here, so I won't address the specific assertions here, but will try to get back to them soon.

No offense meant. Talk to you soon. You guys have a nice weekend.

[Flexmoney]

Folks, I know we are getting a little passionate here. Lets keep the comments in the "helpful spirit" of the Brian Enos Forums.

[geezer-lock]

A generalized comment directed at the membership of the BE forums and anyone stopping by:

I have been shooting for a good number of years and I have heard all of the stories about the rude IPSC folks and the “oh so tactical” IDPA guys. The really weird thing is that in the games I play (IDPA, USPSA & GSSF) I see the same folks on any given weekend. There are literally hundreds of shooters in Area 2 & 4 that shoot all three games and have a great time doing it. We cross-sell a lot and that has to help the shooting sports.

We have to remember that our population of shooters is no different from the population in general. On the great bell curve there are 10% troublemakers, malcontents and misfits, 10% superstars, celebrities and demigods and the 80% of the great unwashed that carry on without a lot of fanfare. All through the great “range lawyer wars of IPSC”, various trials in PPC, Action Pistol, Bullseye and Olympic and the more recent “failure of IDPA” we soldiered on, building props, setting up stages, running matches and SHOOTING.

Come on out to the range and join us. I guarantee it will beat the hell out of any day you spent at the office.

geezer

[carinab]

And to help perpetuate the myth that USPSA is for rich kids....here's some help from Jim Scoutten's Shooting USA show....I realize that these companies have probably paid to appear. But I would have thought that Glock or S&W or someone else would have paid to have a $500.00 pistol listed....If I remember this episode, Dave Sivigny certainly was in it...

Whoa Nellie!!!!!

Let's watch out for the unfair accusations here.

(As far as I know) Nobody pays anybody diddly squat to have a product appear on ANY of Jim Scoutten's shows. Show sponsors are clearly labeled as "sponsors." i.e. Kalispell Cases. What you're seeing on the TV are the products which ShootingUSA is able to get people to send them.

Ummm....Sorry Eric but I was referring to the link in my post from his web page which I believe to be sponsors - not any one particular episode of the TV show. That episode didn't portray IPSC as expensive by declaration at all - I was half heartedly complaining about the web page from the show. If I'm wrong about those guns not being sponsors, then I apologize.

Also sorry for the delay in responding to the post. It seems I missed out on some good rants!

[EricW]

Carina,

I can almost guarantee that the sponsors listed on that page paid nothing for thier exposure on Shooting USA aside from the expense of shipping firearms. There is nothing underhanded going on. Shooting USA clearly identifies who's a sponsor. From the last show, Kalispell cases was a sponsor. During the segment featuring Kalispell cases, they were clearly identified *as a show sponsor*.

FWIW

I don't even understand the mandate that everything you need to shoot USPSA needs to sell for $29.99 at Walmart. We all make choices about our hobbies and sports. There's too many $50,000 pickup trucks with $35,000 jetboats and trailers full of $30,000 worth of snomobiles for me to buy the argument that USPSA is "too expensive."

[carinab]

It wasn't my intention to imply anything "underhanded" was going on. It wasn't my intention to besmirch him in ANYWAY. I've met Scoutten, I like his shows, I appreciate ANY coverage that USPSA gets. I was complaining about this myth of IPSC being too expensive that seems to be "out there" and how the notion is reinforced by two web pages (Jim's and USPSA's). I was suggesting the same thing you were, that USPSA market itself better to correct this perception. I was also just wondering out loud why someone like Glock or S&W didn't pay to get on Jim's web page. Since I don't know anything about how the show is run, I was wrong to guess that the ones listed there had paid to be there - If all it takes is sending some product Jim's way for him to review, then I still wonder why Glock or S&W didn't do it....

However I still believe that the notion about IPSC being too expensive for most is a myth. Personal revelation here: I'm CHEAP. I pinch a penny so hard that Lincoln might press charges - if he weren't dead. So I know for a fact you don't need big bucks, fancy gear and bucoo buck guns to shoot IPSC. The only thing that cost me "money" was when I pawned a VCR to pay for my week of expenses at the first limited Nationals (all of $150.00 - Don't ask how many of us there was to a room). While it's nice to have a really expensive gun and holster, it isn't necessary.

[Flexmoney]

I don't think (from my read) that carinab was implying anything. I did go look at the website. And, I see what she is saying. The message that you can shoot with a trade-in Glock 17, a $20 holster and Wally-world ammo is not to be found.

I don't think that is due to any fault of Scoutten and crew. I think it is a lack on our part (USPSA) to get the message out...even to the media outlets that are covering our sport.

There needs to be an concerted effort (by USPSA and it's members) to let people know about our sport...and, to let them know that they can play...and be competitive...with a $400 Glock or a $600 Springfield.

[John Thompson]

Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. I can't count how many times I've been told I couldn't be competitive with the glock/para/kimber I was shooting.

[hopalong]

I'll shoot with you with my 600 dollar smith & wesson revolver, 40 dollar holster and 20 dollar mooncipholders and 1.25 dollar moonclips anytime.....

Might not win overall at a major match, or a club match for all that matters but I bet there is some FUN had that day.....

Now let see...

600+ 40+ 100(5 mooclip holders)+ 12.50 (10 moonclips) = $752.50

OR I can use the 450 Dollar S&W relvolver my 200 dollar CRspeed rig (won at a match for ROing) the same moonclip holders and more moonclips.

Now lets see....

450 + 45 (gas to go back and forth to the match that I worked) 160 (8 holders on this rig) and 25 (more moonclips)

450+45+160+25= $680

HM.....

BOTH rigs gun and all under $1000 bucks

Now the big deal....

last year 8 major matches average money spent (all expenses) 1200 bucks

Rant mode ON:

(Nationals was a KILLER with 6days and Nights Hotel)

Rant Mode OFF:

before anyone says "too much" this includes time off work as there is no such thing as paid Holidays and paid Vaction in my line of work....

any way let see.....

1200x8 = $9600.00 bucks no matter how you do the math

now if you don't make any major matches things change slightly:

for me:

Gas to Memphis and back 30 Bucks, 200+ rounds of ammo ($.07 each)

gatoraid or similar 3.00 +/- 12 bucks match fee...

lets see.... 30+14+3+12= 59 bucks x 2 (twice a month) = 118 bucks a month x 7 = $826 a year just to go shoot memphis matches

Also have home club matches 1 USPSA, 1 Open steel run under uspsa rules (basicly) 30-40 bucks a match 12 times a year $480 a match a year =$960 or so.

now last year I went through 35,000+ ammo at .07 apeice = $2,450 shot

so without including any Major match info the total is... $4,236 basicly Half what I paid for the 8 Majors

So ther you are....

it boils down to how much you want to shoot...

my USPSA stuff is 90% IDPA legal (or was) and if I want to limit my shooting to just around the house I could make it a year with about 5 grand spent.

but: I really enjoy going and shooting, and meeting the other great folks I have come to know as a result of my travels and don't regret one penny spent.

Can I shoot USPSA as cheap as I could shoot IDPA ? YES and that is where our (USPSA) organization is lacking.... not only at the high level but mid-level and even local club level to a certain extent.

Sorry about the Long post, hope is clears up some of the water but I though some numbers would help.

Hopalong