IDSA -- new shooting sport is organizing

[Byron Simpson]

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/

[Matthew_Mink]

At a quick glance, that could be a fun game.

[vluc]

Reading through some of the messages, may be fun and have potential

[Flexmoney]

Anybody want to post the Reader Digest version?

[Byron Simpson]

Here's an overview:

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that

officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills

in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its

participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by

individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns

and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own

separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side

matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New

and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA

varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a

very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are

NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.

We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a

problem.

Equipment Category:

Holsters

All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.

1. Must be secure.

2. Must be safe.

3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh? Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better

than others.

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.

3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your

arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up

your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the

match.

You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".

2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual

inspection can determine that.

1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional

people feel that a gun should NOT "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from

a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch

yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go

down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely

tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to

stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help

shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting

environment.

Holster Location:

Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"

* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:

1. Cross draw holsters

2. Fanny packs

** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type

holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor

simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:

Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.

Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything

less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the

clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be

substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)

The center ring is worth 5 points

The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor

The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot

placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this

belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less

BIG bullets or More smaller ones?" And to put it another way, "had you

rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL

factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".

If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be

penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center.

Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing their

self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as

hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a

factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"

And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.

This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer

than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it

down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)

* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he

does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able

to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the

shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another

gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)

2. Non-Single Action Autos

3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.

Our thoughts were these:

1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct

advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.

2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.

3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR

choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to

do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy

subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us

some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.

It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry

won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today

our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus

saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US

soldiers would be dieing.

So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that

equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,

leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it

is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to

put as few restrictions possible in this section.

We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want

manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,

sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have

already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff

[kdmoore]

Anybody want to post the Reader Digest version?

This has generated a bit of buzz, and I hope that it keeps it's momentum and carries on.

As I've been reading this for the last few days, I'll give you my rd version.

Impetus was stepping in where IDPA seems to have faltered. But not a replacement. Hope is to attract all shooters.

That said here are some of the details. Group just incorporated Jan 12th 05. Rules aren't out, but should be soon and they hope to shoot this Sat. Principals are in first message.

Want to practice Self defense with safety.

Will have competitions for pistol, shotty, rifle, subgun and pocket pistol.

Equipment Category:

Holsters

All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these

tests.

1. Must be secure. retains when you kneel foward and touch the ground

2. Must be safe.covers trigger

3. Must be concealed.Can't be seen when you stand with arms out "airplane" style

is straight from the yahoo group post. Italics are my paraphrasing of their explanations.

Targets are scored as nuetralized or not. There is a Major/Minor split but power factors are not published yet.

Three handgun classes are "Cocked and Locked", " Non Cocked and Locked Auto's", "Revolver".

Allowed mods are not published, but looks like they may allow optics. Trying to go with a "if it makes you better shooter, then go for it".

Rifle and Shotgun and pocket gun and Subgun are not spoken to yet. Also, Mag capacity is not nailed down. Initial thought is either 10 round mag or factory capacity.

HTH

[kdmoore]

Byron types too fast He has posted the initial message in it's entirity

[EricW]

"Combat" pistol shooting is already so fragmented, I just can't figure out why anybody thinks starting yet another organization is a good for anybody. Surely to god there must be a way to welcome these shooters into USPSA. The fact that these folks don't feel welcome at USPSA matches says something about our marketing: it still isn't reaching the target audience.

My 2...

[MikeFoley]

It seems there are a bunch of shooters who think USPSA equipment and shooting tactics aren't practical or realistic. I don't know that most of the USPSA shooters will ever reach enough common ground for those folks though we are seeing a few converts out of desparation to shoot, especially 3Gun. Not good, not bad, just different views of what action shooting should be. I dare suggest another division, but I think these guys want a stock class(with pistol concealment and use of cover) and don't feel like Limited, Production, or Tactical are the answer.

I could be wrong, but either way I shoot this as a sport. If I gain any real world skills, then it is a secondary incidental benefit. Don't get me wrong, I carry concealed, I practice with those guns a little on my own, and I encourage such behavior if you are going to take on the resposibility of carrying or keeping guns for defense.

The guys who shoot USPSA and 3Gun for fun and shoot their own(tactical) way are alright(and I like shooting with them), but I play to improve, and compete to a lesser extent.

Just my thoughts on why we are not getting those shooters in our sport, and why some of us may not care. I want the sport to grow, but I don't want it to morph into something dramatically different than it is today.

[Rob Boudrie]

"Combat" pistol shooting is already so fragmented, I just can't figure out why anybody thinks starting yet another organization is a good for anybody. Surely to god there must be a way to welcome these shooters into USPSA. The fact that these folks don't feel welcome at USPSA matches says something about our marketing: it still isn't reaching the target audience.

My 2...

It's not that USPSA does not welcome people. A significant number of the people in our sport have stroing view about how things should be, and can become frustrated when their viewpoint doe not carry the day.

Both IDPA and IDSA seem to be formed on the same basis: A group of people who wanted to set the rules to fit their vision formed a new organization where they could do so.

Anyone know if IDSA uses the membership/election model of USPSA or the privately owned corporation model if IDPA?

[vluc]

Anyone know if IDSA uses the membership/election model of USPSA or the privately owned corporation model if IDPA?

From what I read, more of membership/election, though I've not seen anything on elections. Granted they are still working on the rules as we speak.

They form around a "club president" concept, wherby each participating club's president is the "voice" of the club to IDSA.

May get unwieldy with hundreds of clubs, but let them shake it through and we'll see.

At the very least, one more chance to shoot somewhere!

[Rob Boudrie]

Anyone know if IDSA uses the membership/election model of USPSA or the privately owned corporation model if IDPA?

From what I read, more of membership/election, though I've not seen anything on elections. Granted they are still working on the rules as we speak.

They form around a "club president" concept, wherby each participating club's president is the "voice" of the club to IDSA.

May get unwieldy with hundreds of clubs, but let them shake it through and we'll see.

At the very least, one more chance to shoot somewhere!

SASS has "territorial governors" whose advice on rules is generally heeded, but the charter of the corporation is such that their legal role is limited to that of "advisors to the board" ... so on cannot assume an election model from the info given. The real "test" is who has the authority to make legally binding spending decisions.

[warpspeed]

This really sounds a lot like CART and IRL.

[Matthew_Mink]

The fact that these folks don't feel welcome at USPSA matches says something about our marketing:  it still isn't reaching the target audience.

My 2...

Eric is absolutely right. Case in point, I taught a class this weekend to predominately IDPA shooters. None of them realized that you could shoot the same gun and be competitive in USPSA. They all thought that you have to spend $3000 to get into the game. Production, Lim 10, and Revolver have been in existance for what, 5 years, and I still run into this? Our marketing sux!!

[ima45dv8]

QUOTE:

"Holster Location:

Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"

* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:

1. Cross draw holsters

2. Fanny packs

** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type

holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor

simply prohibits them."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sounds like SOB holsters will be permitted. I don't use them for carry due to the injury reports I've read from folks who fell down and landed on them. Hard steel between my lower back and the ground is a scary thought. They also seem more prone to revealing themselves when bending over (my opinion). If someone else wants to carry in one, that's their choice.

But in a match environment, with the added pressure of a timer, I'm not sure I'd want to be around someone fishing their blaster out of one, especially from concealment.

I'm not saying it can't be done safely. I just envision some serious "sweeping" potential.

[BigDave]

One thing that I find refreshing when reading the above is logical approach they are taking, and that appeals to me. If it works, it works. But I agree with Eric, I'm not for even further fragmentation. Perhaps this will be much like when Ross Perot ran for President? It may not get anywhere, but it will get attention and get people thinking.

[GRD]

It may not get anywhere, but it will get attention and get people thinking.

And the next thing you know, Clinton is the president!

- Gabe

[JFD]

Our(USPSA) marketing most certainly sucks. The mere sight of an Open or Limited gun on any literature reinforces the belief that you have to have the expensive race gun to compete in our sport. The people we are trying to attract don't have race guns in their nightstand drawer at home, so 100% of our advertising focus should be on Production and Limited 10.

However USPSA is not IDPA, and we're not going to attract the folks who want to shoot the kinds of COFs that IDPA offers, and who like the basic principles IDPA at least talks about. They are not in competition with us. They fill a need that we don't. This is a good thing. Any attempt to water down USPSA into something a dedicated IDPA shooter might like will simply ruin what we have now. Having IDPA around actually helps keep our sport what it is.

Production and L-10 simply provide divisions where a new shooter can still be competitive without the major expense of Open or Limited. Prod/L-10 also offer a different type of challenge that could keep a shooter happy forever, not simply a stepping-stone to the race divisions. USPSA most certainly HAS the product, but it's way past time to focus on advertising and drum up some new customers, realizing that our target group of shooters has a terribly incorrect perception of what the sport is, and what equipment is needed.

IDSA, if it actually turns out to be something, is in direct competiton with IDPA. How can anyone NOT believe that IDPA really, in a major way, is begging for competition? This competition can only help IDPA members. Either IDPA will realize their members are paying customers who demand a product that suits their needs, or IDSA will take the business away from them.

[EricW]

It's not that USPSA does not welcome people. A significant number of the people in our sport have stroing view about how things should be, and can become frustrated when their viewpoint doe not carry the day.

Rob,

(The frustration in this post isn't directed toward you, so take it with a grain of salt. )

My point is that even in the light of a substantianial number of shooters rejecting IDPA lately, they *STILL* don't feel like they'd be welcome at a USPSA match and accordingly have gone off to build their own treehouse. The fact that they *will* be welcome is totally irrelevant, as the disinformation campaign led by dark forces over the last decade is still in full force.

It can only be a damning indictment that USPSA is STILL failing to market itself properly.

And frankly, not letting the CCW guys come play and shoot the stages their way because of the usual, whiny crybabies is a real damned shame. It wouldn't hurt a single person in USPSA if the CCW guys wore vests and used barrels and barracades for cover while they shot the match. There is no reason why the CCW shooters could be squadded together and have their scores grouped together. It would not fragment the competition in any substantial way, since most would be new shooters.

As far as I'm concerned, the crybabies can just shut their pie-holes while the rest of USPSA extends the olive branch to a bunch of shooters who feel like they have no home.

/Rant Off

[JFD]

Who/what is preventing the CCW types from coming and shooting USPSA stages "their way" right now?

Seems I recall seeing a Front Sight article a year or so ago that covered a combo match that was an "official" USPSA sectional, as well as an unofficial IDPA state match. The IDPAers used what cover they could find, and generally used their imagination to apply IDPA rules to USPSA stages.

I see at least one person every match who ignores the competition aspect of the game and shoots the stages in what they feel is a tactical manner. To date not a single person has tried to stop them.

With that said, I don't see any harm in trying out "Tactical Production" and "Tactical L-10" divisions. I'm sure there are clubs that wouldn't want to support the divisions, but surely there are others that would make a few prop adjustments in order to try and attract new members.

Would it be successful? I don't know. I still have a feeling that the basic fundamental difference between the two sports comes down to "freestyle" versus "anti-freestyle". Adding a few props and a handful of new rules will not attract the anti-freestyle crowd, just as the equipment rules for Production and L-10(mainly Production) have failed to attract a meaningful number of IDPAers.

In my heart, I believe we need to focus on attracting new shooters, not stealing folks from IDPA. We have an excellent product to sell, we just need to clear up the misconceptions that are killing us right now.

[Rob Boudrie]

The real competition with IDPA comes at the "club affiliation" level. The shooters I am thinking about are the individuals who are going to shoot whatever form of action pistol shooting is offered at their local club. I have little doubt that many of the people I recruited to USPSA could have just as easily been recruited to IDPA if that was the product my local club was offering.

[BigDave]

It may not get anywhere, but it will get attention and get people thinking.

And the next thing you know, Clinton is the president!

- Gabe

Yeah, but in my mind IDPA was Bush, Sr.

[Sam]

Here is a suggestion for USPSA members, one I arrived at just a couple of weeks ago. Just go out and shoot for fun. Yes, it is more fun when you win, but only if you didn't get all stressed over it in the first place. I've decided to do most of my shooting in L-10 this year because I really have more fun shooting my single-stack and classic (old-timey) gear. Prospective new members will see old geezers like me, shooting "geezer gear" and having great fun!

Yes, I'm a little bit more competitive with my STI widebody and my 012 Safariland rig, but only a little. I'm going to jettison that stuff this season and shoot for style with what I started out with back in '92.

"Dance with who brung you,

Swing with who swung you,

Life ain't no forty-yard dash....."

[Sgtsvi]

I am not really interested in shooting any type of defensive pistol competition any more. If Bill W. said that all the old rules are back in place and no changes are made, I would still gravitate towards USPSA. I feel like IDPA gave me a good foundation to shoot competitive matches. I now feel like I have evolved past defensive shooting and all the rules. I have been dedicated to USPSA for about two months now and I am not turning back. My rationalization is that the best shooters at the IDPA Nationals are USPSA shooters. I have not heard of a dedicated IDPA shooter coming to a USPSA event and dominating all the competitors. I love my new sport and hope more IDPA shooters come out and give it a try. I will not bash ANY shooting sport. If you are getting trigger time doing something you like, then go for it. Bullseye, skeet, clays, IDPA, rifle, 3 gun, ect.... With so many people trying to take away from the gun owners these days, we all need to stick together to maintain the right to do what we all love.

shooting!

Dave

[Merlin Orr]

With so many people trying to take away from the gun owners these days, we all need to stick together to maintain the right to do what we all love.

shooting!

Dave

Here it is. This says it all. Read & Heed!