R.Elliott Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 You guys kill me with this "Grip it firmly" or "Don't worry about gripping the gun hard" stuff..... Here are three videos of uncompensated pistol shooting with slow motion video. You tell me which video produces the most consistent recoil management that would allow the fastest and most consistent follow up shots. The first video is me gripping the gun as I normally would while shooting a stage. Those videos are awesome. Very telling. Funny story: I have an engineer friend who once listened patiently to me as I harangued him for half an hour about some goofy ideas I had for fancy slide cuts, radical comp designs, grip modifications, etc., all in the name of improving the tracking of the gun in recoil. Finally, I wound myself down and asked him, "So what do you think of all that?" He just looked at me with his calm, dead, engineer eyes and said, "I don't think; I measure." That was a real teachable moment for me right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 If you are gripping the gun hard with the proper grip angles, there SHOULDN'T be much if any muzzle flip during recoil with Major Power Factor non-compensated pistols. With properly setup and tuned Open Guns, or Minor Power Factor guns, there should be virtually ZERO muzzle flip. There may me a slight displacement of the whole gun, but there shouldn't be much muzzle flip. When you guys are gripping the gun with weak grip pressure or crappy grip angles which allows the gun to muzzle flip excessively, this forces you to wait for the front sight to stop bouncing around post shot. While you are waiting for the sights to settle I am already assessing the sight picture and starting the break of the next shot because my sights are not displacing much at all. As I said before in this thread, Muzzle flip is for wussies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 awesome video Charlie. There's nothing I don't like about how you shoot. Nice neutral stance. standing very naturally. head up (none of this boxer crouch BS), bringing gun up to your eyes not the other way around. elbows are very slightly bent. grip is super high and clearly very strong. The only reason you gun seems to move at all is the result of the inertia the slide mass has when it hits the rear stop. even then with the height of your grip it can't use the guns grip as a lever to move muzzle up but it just transfers into displacing the gun back a little. I can only imagine how flat your gun would look with you shooting an island barrel/sight tracker type gun where even more weight is off the slide and the barrel is heavier. I'm a big proponent of what Jerry Miculek preaches in his videos and it seems you shoot the same way. as Nimitz said Jerry mentions if you can shoot a 200 round practice session without your hands hurting afterwards you are not gripping as hard as you should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I will strive to emulate CHA-LEE. Edited May 21, 2015 by GunBugBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 grip it and rip it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cha-Lee, I would really appreciate some insight into what you mean by proper grip angles. Muzzle flip is something I struggle with (as a skinny weak guy who now has tennis elbow from trying to grip harder). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha1000 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cha-Lee, I would really appreciate some insight into what you mean by proper grip angles. Muzzle flip is something I struggle with (as a skinny weak guy who now has tennis elbow from trying to grip harder). Same from a 6'5" 260 lb guy with a 500+ lb double overhand deadlift. Grip strength is certainly not my problem, but I have been unable to figure out the technique on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 It does not make sense to reinvent the wheel on describing how to properly grip the gun when there are already a crap ton of those threads that already exist on this forum. Do some searching for a "Thumbs Forward" grip on the forum and you will find a lot of good information about it. Reading about it and having someone show you it in person are two completely different things though. I would suggest you go to your local USPSA matches and observe how the better shooters are managing the recoil and talk to them about their grip and ask for assistance in developing the proper thumbs forward grip. If your current grip style is significantly different than what is needed for a proper thumbs forward grip, don't be surprised if putting your hands in the proper angles feels super strange or awkward when you first start doing it. Its kind of like riding a bike for a long time then jumping on a friends bike and it feels super strange to ride because its setup differently than what you are use to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 no pain, no gain .... at the end of the day it always comes back to superior fundamentals .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortBus Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 That is an awesome video. Do you do any training classes? What part of the country are you in if you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 That is an awesome video. Do you do any training classes? What part of the country are you in if you do? I am in Colorado and I do training. But what I am doing in the video isn't "magic" or "special". It's simply deploying the fundamentals and gripping the gun hard with the proper mechanics. There are plenty of trainers all over the nation that can train people to shoot levering the proper fundamentals and mechanics. The sad situation is that many shooters don't believe it's possible to produce a near zero muzzle flip level of recoil management. If I didn't post the video of me doing it many still would think its impossible. It's the age old ignorance of "if I can't do it then nobody can" mentality. People with that mindset usually spend more time making excuses as to why they can't do things verses actually putting effort into figuring it out. There isn't much that can be done for these people until they change their mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I have read a lot on the forum about grip and watched a lot of videos. I am copying the thumbs forward grip as far as I understand it, but I am still not achieving the level of recoil control I would like. There also seem to be differing opinions (like whether to squeeze inwards at the top of your grip using your shoulders). Being in South Africa, the option of one on one training is essentially non-existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) the best compliment I've every received about my shooting (and I ain't no GM yet ...) was at last year's US Steel Nationals when I had just finished shooting the last stage of the match (with my Production CZ) ... One of my squad mates came up to me and said "boy, that Shadow of yours shoots really flat ..." uh, yes it does .... Edited May 22, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I have read a lot on the forum about grip and watched a lot of videos. I am copying the thumbs forward grip as far as I understand it, but I am still not achieving the level of recoil control I would like. There also seem to be differing opinions (like whether to squeeze inwards at the top of your grip using your shoulders). Being in South Africa, the option of one on one training is essentially non-existent. any side ways prerssure on the gun (from anywhere) will require an equal amount of side ways pressure on the opposite side in order to maintain a neutral grip which will be difficult to do. using your shoulders to squeeze inwards puts a lot of tension in your shoulders which is also not a good thing. you want to be gripping the gun with only your hands and he rst of your body should be relaxed ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Thanks. That makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JigSaw Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I have read a lot on the forum about grip and watched a lot of videos. I am copying the thumbs forward grip as far as I understand it, but I am still not achieving the level of recoil control I would like. There also seem to be differing opinions (like whether to squeeze inwards at the top of your grip using your shoulders). Being in South Africa, the option of one on one training is essentially non-existent. any side ways prerssure on the gun (from anywhere) will require an equal amount of side ways pressure on the opposite side in order to maintain a neutral grip which will be difficult to do. using your shoulders to squeeze inwards puts a lot of tension in your shoulders which is also not a good thing. you want to be gripping the gun with only your hands and he rst of your body should be relaxed ... I agree that pressure from the side of the gun will have to be cancelled w/ equal pressure from the opposite side BUT.... All the guys running "Pedals" / are they not applying pressure on the side. Is it strictly a rest for the thumb and downward pressure is applied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US1 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Recoil control is one of the results of a proper grip. The two factors in the grip that allow for great recoil control are a strong "week hand" grip AND canting the week hand wrist forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrtWhite Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Alright, I'm a new shooter, so please take that in consideration. Can someone tell me what I'm doing it wrong here, or if something looks right, what does need to change in order to get tighter groups? I'd say I have about 8in between the first and second shots. I'm trying to push with my strong hand and pull with the weak hand without using my forearms to "squeeze" the pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Alright, I'm a new shooter, so please take that in consideration. Can someone tell me what I'm doing it wrong here, or if something looks right, what does need to change in order to get tighter groups? I'd say I have about 8in between the first and second shots. I'm trying to push with my strong hand and pull with the weak hand without using my forearms to "squeeze" the pistol. you have a nasty flinch on the first shot, so that isn't helping Don't do a push pull, no reason to pull the gun in the direct you don't want to go and then only have one hand/ arm to control the recoil. Just push out with both arms, clamp your hands together like a vice Edited May 25, 2015 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) I have read a lot on the forum about grip and watched a lot of videos. I am copying the thumbs forward grip as far as I understand it, but I am still not achieving the level of recoil control I would like. There also seem to be differing opinions (like whether to squeeze inwards at the top of your grip using your shoulders). Being in South Africa, the option of one on one training is essentially non-existent. any side ways prerssure on the gun (from anywhere) will require an equal amount of side ways pressure on the opposite side in order to maintain a neutral grip which will be difficult to do. using your shoulders to squeeze inwards puts a lot of tension in your shoulders which is also not a good thing. you want to be gripping the gun with only your hands and he rst of your body should be relaxed ... I agree that pressure from the side of the gun will have to be cancelled w/ equal pressure from the opposite sideBUT.... All the guys running "Pedals" / are they not applying pressure on the side. Is it strictly a rest for the thumb and downward pressure is applied? The thumb rest is supposed to be exactly that.... Just a place to rest your thumb. For all those legions of folks who use it to apply downward pressure .... Well, in the words of Ben Stoeger ... "You're doing it wrong ..." ..... Edited May 25, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JigSaw Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I have read a lot on the forum about grip and watched a lot of videos. I am copying the thumbs forward grip as far as I understand it, but I am still not achieving the level of recoil control I would like. There also seem to be differing opinions (like whether to squeeze inwards at the top of your grip using your shoulders). Being in South Africa, the option of one on one training is essentially non-existent. any side ways prerssure on the gun (from anywhere) will require an equal amount of side ways pressure on the opposite side in order to maintain a neutral grip which will be difficult to do. using your shoulders to squeeze inwards puts a lot of tension in your shoulders which is also not a good thing. you want to be gripping the gun with only your hands and he rst of your body should be relaxed ...I agree that pressure from the side of the gun will have to be cancelled w/ equal pressure from the opposite sideBUT.... All the guys running "Pedals" / are they not applying pressure on the side. Is it strictly a rest for the thumb and downward pressure is applied? The thumb rest is supposed to be exactly that.... Just a place to rest your thumb. For all those legions of folks who use it to apply downward pressure .... Well, in the words of Ben Stoeger ... "You're doing it wrong ..." ..... Thanks I bought one for my Edge but couldn't ever convince myself that tapping the frame was worth the trouble. Have shot a few guns with them and I believe I was doing it wrong every time because it wasn't the earth shattering difference I thought it might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Alright, I'm a new shooter, so please take that in consideration. Can someone tell me what I'm doing it wrong here, or if something looks right, what does need to change in order to get tighter groups? I'd say I have about 8in between the first and second shots. I'm trying to push with my strong hand and pull with the weak hand without using my forearms to "squeeze" the pistol. Looks like you are anticipating recoil and starting to lean back just before the shot, then the muzzle dips (flinch) as well just before ignition. Rather than thinking push/pull, imagine you're holding a sledgehammer at arms length. You wouldn't push and pull to do that; you'd just hold it out there and grip it really hard. The muscles of your arms, chest and back will load up in an isometric hold automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrtWhite Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 This is a new gun, I'm still getting used to that double action trigger, I think that's what you see in the first shot. Do you still see that flinch around 1:15 in the video? I guess, my upper body is not returning to the starting point after each shot and at some point I lean forward. Is that just being new and not used to it or is it a bad stance? I figured the Push/Pull would use more of my biceps/triceps/pecks to "squeeze" the gun in place, as opposed to using my forearms to "crush" the gun. Did I get that all wrong? Another question, as I'm practicing this, is it normal to use enough strength to the point your arms start to shake after a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explosivewhale Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 My buddy makes lighter loads for me and I shoot flat as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbarnett50 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Roll your hands inward slightly and choke the gun high up on the frame. Recoil control is about putting the correct amount of force at the correct location on the gun. You'll find that by introducing just a small amount of inward rotation of your hands at your forearms and/or shoulders, that you can reduce the amount of hand strength you're applying while at the same time keeping the same amount of control on the gun. Hand muscles are small and weak, hard to develop, and will fatigue quickly. Your forearm and/or shoulder muscles you use to rotate your arms inward are already more than strong enough to manage recoil, and are much larger, much stronger, and much less likely to fatigue than your hand muscles. It's all about applying a small amount of leverage to the gun to produce a larger force. While I could try to use finger strength alone to remove a stuck on nut from a rusty bolt, I choose to use a pliers instead because by doing so I'm not only using stronger muscles, I'm amplifying the force produced by the muscles via leverage. It's the same with your pistol grip, a very slight rotation inward takes your hand strength and amplifies it with your forearm and shoulder muscles, and focusses it high up on the grip where you need it for recoil control. You still need a decent amount of hand strength when using this technique, but significantly less than if you were gripping the gun with the muscles of the hand alone. I've been playing with this method and the gun feels very stable. Edited June 8, 2015 by jbarnett50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now