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the secret to recoil control?


3djedi

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In addition to grip pressure, make sure the weak hand is properly rolled over with index finger wedged hard under the trigger guard and base knuckle of thumb fitted into the notch created by the middle knuckle of the strong hand. This keeps the wrist as high as possible relative to the axis of recoil. Thumb rests on thumb. The heels of the hands should be in firm contact with each other at the back strap, with no air spaces between them.

Good recoil management comes from the combination of correct wrist angle, wrist pivot offset (the weak hand wrist is in front of the strong hand wrist), hand position relative to bore axis, grip pressure, proper arm extension and body mass position. Note that if your arms aren't extended enough (not locked at the elbows) the wrist offset hand position and grip pressure mechanical advantages will be diminished, resulting in greater muzzle flip.

Dang, I read this post and said to myself "hey this makes sense!" Then I saw who the poster was. Hey Rob y'all lookin gud! :-)

Edited by hercster
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Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

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Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

I don't buy it. Timing isn't what you are looking for. Stoeger uses completely different practice ammo. He doesn't even make his own match ammo, and doesn't even know the load of his practice stuff.

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Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

I don't buy it. Timing isn't what you are looking for. Stoeger uses completely different practice ammo. He doesn't even make his own match ammo, and doesn't even know the load of his practice stuff.

That is awesome logic....... One dude goes against the grain and that is worthy of dismissing a tried and true recommendation that has probably benefited thousands of shooters.

You also need to think about your benefactors gun and weak sauce Minor PF ammo. Super heavy gun + any minor PF ammo = Soft Shooting and minimal muzzle flip. You really don't need mega grip strength to manage the recoil effectively on that setup.

To each their own I guess

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Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

I don't buy it. Timing isn't what you are looking for. Stoeger uses completely different practice ammo. He doesn't even make his own match ammo, and doesn't even know the load of his practice stuff.

That is awesome logic....... One dude goes against the grain and that is worthy of dismissing a tried and true recommendation that has probably benefited thousands of shooters.

You also need to think about your benefactors gun and weak sauce Minor PF ammo. Super heavy gun + any minor PF ammo = Soft Shooting and minimal muzzle flip. You really don't need mega grip strength to manage the recoil effectively on that setup.

To each their own I guess

It is awesome logic. He used definitive terms, "you can't", "it will", etc. You aren't really managing recoil if you are just getting the timing to work with one specific load.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've never really had issue switching platforms and managing recoil. When shooting to your sites it doesn't matter. You shoot when your sites return. Maybe GM's are different though? I wouldn't know.

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here's a simple way to tell if you are gripping the gun hard enough that everyone can do .... after about 30 mins of serious dry fire training if your hands don't start to hurt you are likley not gripping the gun hard enough ...

Edited by Nimitz
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Before reading this thread, I followed the “grip like a hammer” school of thought.

After reading this thread and watching the Vogel video, I tried gripping the shit out of the gun and torqueing my hands inward for the past couple of months. My Bill Drill splits improved when shooting my 1911 in .45 ACP. There was no real change in the splits for my Open gun with 9mm major.

Then I recently bought Ben Stoeger’s books and starting working on the Dot drill: 2” dot at 7 yards, 6 shots within 5 sec, with a draw. I kept failing at this drill and realized my trigger control really needed some improvement.

Gripping hard AND torqueing my hands inward made my trigger control worse. I had much better trigger control WITHOUT torqueing my hands inward, but still gripping the gun hard.

So I switched to “gripping the shit out of the gun” while keeping everything else neutral which is working well for both recoil control and trigger control. I was able to get my personal best Bill Drill tines on my .45 ACP at 7 yards with 2.24 sec and now I can do 25 yard bill drills in the 4 sec range with my open gun.

Before my grip/trigger control improvement, I never recorded my 25 yard Bill Drill times because it was tough just to keep shots in the brown.

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good grip "structure", and then as stoeger would say "grip the s#@! out of it"

All this goes out the window once you see Hunter Cayll shoot.

Amazing, isn't he?

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Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

Edited by GunBugBit
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Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

As long as you are only applying downward force after the shot, I don't see the problem. The stronger you grip, the less you will have to "wrangle" the gun back on target though. Switching between my tanfo and glock, I have to "wrangle" the glock to keep similar splits.

Edited by Wesquire
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Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

As long as you are only applying downward force after the shot, I don't see the problem. The stronger you grip, the less you will have to "wrangle" the gun back on target though. Switching between my tanfo and glock, I have to "wrangle" the glock to keep similar splits.

You should not have to move any muscles, apply any pressure, or do any wrangling in order to get the sight back on target. Your grip should be a spring that allows the muzzle to lift slightly in recoil, but then returns the gun back to the exact same spot it came from before the shot.

Recoil control is a constant, passive effort throughout the firing cycle. If any part of your body moves, strengthens or braces during the firing cycle, other than the movement of your finger on the trigger, your doing it wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

As long as you are only applying downward force after the shot, I don't see the problem. The stronger you grip, the less you will have to "wrangle" the gun back on target though. Switching between my tanfo and glock, I have to "wrangle" the glock to keep similar splits.

You should not have to move any muscles, apply any pressure, or do any wrangling in order to get the sight back on target. Your grip should be a spring that allows the muzzle to lift slightly in recoil, but then returns the gun back to the exact same spot it came from before the shot.

Recoil control is a constant, passive effort throughout the firing cycle. If any part of your body moves, strengthens or braces during the firing cycle, other than the movement of your finger on the trigger, your doing it wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

As long as you are only applying downward force after the shot, I don't see the problem. The stronger you grip, the less you will have to "wrangle" the gun back on target though. Switching between my tanfo and glock, I have to "wrangle" the glock to keep similar splits.

You should not have to move any muscles, apply any pressure, or do any wrangling in order to get the sight back on target. Your grip should be a spring that allows the muzzle to lift slightly in recoil, but then returns the gun back to the exact same spot it came from before the shot.

Recoil control is a constant, passive effort throughout the firing cycle. If any part of your body moves, strengthens or braces during the firing cycle, other than the movement of your finger on the trigger, your doing it wrong.

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Simply not true. As long as it is repeatable, there's no detriment.

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I think we're saying what works for each of us. I don't expect what works for me to work for everyone else. I confirmed this morning that things go better for-me accuracy-wise if I apply a steady firm grip and not muscle against the recoil. However this is only what my mind believes I am doing, maybe I'm lying to myself.

I'd like to add that this approach works well with both the G20 with full-power 10mm and the 1911 in .45 ACP. For me. But now I'm focusing only on the 1911.

Edited by GunBugBit
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Quote name="Wesquire" post="2394729" timestamp="1431805904"]

Some might equate "grip it very hard" with "muscle against the recoil". I did at least. I grip pretty hard with the support hand but I have stopped trying to counteract the recoil with downward force (though maybe I am still applying some, just not to the extent I once was).

As long as you are only applying downward force after the shot, I don't see the problem. The stronger you grip, the less you will have to "wrangle" the gun back on target though. Switching between my tanfo and glock, I have to "wrangle" the glock to keep similar splits.

You should not have to move any muscles, apply any pressure, or do any wrangling in order to get the sight back on target. Your grip should be a spring that allows the muzzle to lift slightly in recoil, but then returns the gun back to the exact same spot it came from before the shot.

Recoil control is a constant, passive effort throughout the firing cycle. If any part of your body moves, strengthens or braces during the firing cycle, other than the movement of your finger on the trigger, your doing it wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Simply not true. As long as it is repeatable, there's no detriment.

One might be able to get away with the "constant, passive effort" when shooting open guns, especially when shooting minor. But I don't know anyone that can do that at speed with major caliber limited. As an example, here is a test. Have someone load a number of magazines for you with 6 rounds but insert one dummy into each mag. Now attempt to perform successful Bill Drills without dipping the muzzle when the dummy round is "fired".

There is nothing wrong with using muscle pressure to counteract the recoil as Wesquire says as long as the gun returns to we here it started.

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You guys kill me with this "Grip it firmly" or "Don't worry about gripping the gun hard" stuff..... Here are three videos of uncompensated pistol shooting with slow motion video. You tell me which video produces the most consistent recoil management that would allow the fastest and most consistent follow up shots. The first video is me gripping the gun as I normally would while shooting a stage.

Solid hard grip pressure and effective grip angles.... YES that is 170+ Major Power Factor ammo.

Proper Grip Angles but poor support hand grip pressure..... Look how the gun muzzle flips up and to the right and you can even see how the gun shifts within the support hand.

Very poor grip angles and grip pressure. This is how you punch yourself in the face with the gun because your recoil management is so poor.

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How the heck do you get so high a grip on the gun? I can't even see the beavertail on the first video and the slide is right on the top of your hand!

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How the heck do you get so high a grip on the gun? I can't even see the beavertail on the first video and the slide is right on the top of your hand!

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I have fairly wide hands and do my best to bury the beaver tail deep into the web of my hand. The higher up on the gun your hands are the less mechanical leverage it has against you.

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